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Talk:2012-10-31-The Flurry 9 (view source)
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WARNING: Readers should be apprised of conflicting assessments of the '''''ABC Summaries''''', occurring specifically in the documents '''''Conversations with Monjoronson''''' numbers [https://nordan.daynal.org/wiki/index.php?title=2012-11-30-Conversations_with_Monjoronson_65 65], [https://nordan.daynal.org/wiki/index.php?title=2012-12-04-Conversations_with_Monjoronson_66 66], and [https://nordan.daynal.org/wiki/index.php?title=2013-01-13-Conversations_with_Monjoronson_67 67].--rdavis 19:32, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
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'''Ron wrote as preface on November 1, 2012:'''
'''Ron wrote as preface on November 1, 2012:'''
'''Rob wrote: Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 10:56 PM'''
'''Rob wrote: Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 10:56 PM'''
Wait until you read the unpublished volumes of "[http://store.innertraditions.com/isbn/978-1-59143-125-1 Return of the Rebel Angels]". It makes this document read like [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_and_andy Amos 'n Andy]
Wait until you read the unpublished volumes of "[https://store.innertraditions.com/isbn/978-1-59143-125-1 Return of the Rebel Angels]". It makes this document read like [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_and_andy Amos 'n Andy]
'''Gerdean wrote: Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 11:36 PM'''
'''Gerdean wrote: Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 11:36 PM'''
© The 11:11 Progress Group.
© The 11:11 Progress Group.
Try coming out of the shadows, a little at the time—TA.
Try coming out of the shadows, a little at the time—TA.
Please visit: http://www.1111angels.net
Please visit: https://www.1111angels.net
'''Rob Davis wrote: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 4:53 PM'''
'''Rob Davis wrote: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 4:53 PM'''
It is apparent the material [[136:1|messianic expectations]] Jesus wrestled with in his time are unchanged to this day. The [http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CHUQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Findividual.utoronto.ca%2Fsmlewis_bible%2FIsApocalypticImaginationKillingUs.pdf&ei=14CZUMmXKYfm8QT5g4GwCw&usg=AFQjCNHBJG_2R6BXlpRXXnLyU1hoV92X4A&sig2=CPNYzALDuU9Oms8u6ddfKg&cad=rja apocalyptic imagination] is a great source of inspiration in this world as I am sure it is in all worlds during their evolutionary struggle to attain "the vestibule of eternity" where such hopes are obsolete. Of course, it is necessary for a certain number of persons to enter such a state as individuals prior to any world entering it en masse. It is the curricula of Paradise that affords each of us a path to do so independently of any religion or social movement that may distract us from the simple task of doing the will of God, sharing our life with him in and through each moment of living. While the way of God is not always acceptable to material mortals, it is the way that governs the cosmos, including Urantia.
It is apparent the material [[136:1|messianic expectations]] Jesus wrestled with in his time are unchanged to this day. The [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CHUQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Findividual.utoronto.ca%2Fsmlewis_bible%2FIsApocalypticImaginationKillingUs.pdf&ei=14CZUMmXKYfm8QT5g4GwCw&usg=AFQjCNHBJG_2R6BXlpRXXnLyU1hoV92X4A&sig2=CPNYzALDuU9Oms8u6ddfKg&cad=rja apocalyptic imagination] is a great source of inspiration in this world as I am sure it is in all worlds during their evolutionary struggle to attain "the vestibule of eternity" where such hopes are obsolete. Of course, it is necessary for a certain number of persons to enter such a state as individuals prior to any world entering it en masse. It is the curricula of Paradise that affords each of us a path to do so independently of any religion or social movement that may distract us from the simple task of doing the will of God, sharing our life with him in and through each moment of living. While the way of God is not always acceptable to material mortals, it is the way that governs the cosmos, including Urantia.
'''Rob Davis wrote: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 5:21 PM'''
'''Rob Davis wrote: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 5:21 PM'''
p.s. The Urantia Movement is officially recognized as a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFO_religions#List UFO religion]. No doubt, the Teaching Mission and Magisterial Mission would be reocognized as such if either of these had sufficient followings.
p.s. The Urantia Movement is officially recognized as a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFO_religions#List UFO religion]. No doubt, the Teaching Mission and Magisterial Mission would be reocognized as such if either of these had sufficient followings.
Of course, this explains why Tom Choquette recently offered the Garden Project 40+ acres for 99 years for $1. with the contingency that they no longer talk about the Magisterial Mission in any public venue and do not openly proclaim that they are a Urantia based community. When I heard this, I thought it sounded like a "urantian" equivalent of modern banks e.g. post-modern slavery.
Of course, this explains why Tom Choquette recently offered the Garden Project 40+ acres for 99 years for $1. with the contingency that they no longer talk about the Magisterial Mission in any public venue and do not openly proclaim that they are a Urantia based community. When I heard this, I thought it sounded like a "urantian" equivalent of modern banks e.g. post-modern slavery.
Sent from my iPad
Sent from my iPad
'''Rob emailed Fred Harris: Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 2:48 PM''':
Hello Fred-
I will gladly post your email to tml on your behalf. Given the defensive tone and the thread in which it will appear is being archived as part of the discussion page of a 'reflectivated' lesson entitled 2012-10-31-The Flurry 9, might you wish to re-write it in a manner that you would like to have on record for future reference?
Gratefully,
Rob
'''Rob wrote: Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 3:18 PM'''
'''Rob wrote: Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 3:18 PM'''
Apparently the proposal offered to the Garden Project as not made by Tom Choquette but Fred Harris. More details will follow soon, but the email I received from one of the Garden Project participants at Alta Mons characterized the proposal as follows.
Apparently the proposal offered to the Garden Project was not made by Tom Choquette but Fred Harris. More details will follow soon, but the email I received from one of the Garden Project participants at Alta Mons characterized the proposal as follows.
:Fred presented a proposal to the group that the Garden Project consider collaborating with Truthseekers on the 275 acre property in Versailles, Kentucky, Tom Choquette has just acquired. They are looking for a residential community to help with their plans to do organic gardening with young people on the land. He proposed to lease the Garden Project 40+ acres for 99 years for $1. with the contingency that we no longer talk about the Magisterial Mission in any public venue and do not openly proclaim that we are a Urantia based community.
:Fred presented a proposal to the group that the Garden Project consider collaborating with Truthseekers on the 275 acre property in Versailles, Kentucky, Tom Choquette has just acquired. They are looking for a residential community to help with their plans to do organic gardening with young people on the land. He proposed to lease the Garden Project 40+ acres for 99 years for $1. with the contingency that we no longer talk about the Magisterial Mission in any public venue and do not openly proclaim that we are a Urantia based community.
:The group had an opportunity to sit in stillness with this proposition, and seemed open to further exploration of the option. Before leaving the gathering, however, Fred changed his mind about collaborating and said he and Tom were just going to do the project themselves. (I believe he was offended by some comments that were made).
:The group had an opportunity to sit in stillness with this proposition, and seemed open to further exploration of the option. Before leaving the gathering, however, Fred changed his mind about collaborating and said he and Tom were just going to do the project themselves. (I believe he was offended by some comments that were made).
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'''Rob called Fred Harris on his cell phone at 3:29 PM to see if he might wish to adjust his statement knowing it was being saved. He hung up in the middle of our conversation.'''
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'''Rob wrote on behalf of Fred Harris: Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 3:35 PM'''
Fred Harris has requested that the following comments be posted to tml knowing that they are appearing in a thread being saved as part of the discussion page of 2012-10-31-The Flurry 9. Apparently, the offense he took to the response at Alta Mons, he wishes to make known to tml.
:Rob, Carol Hurtado forwarded me your post to TML regarding the proposal I made to the Garden Group last weekend in Virginia. Your description is totally inaccurate and I want you to post my response (below) to TML along with a retraction and apology. If he doesn’t, Carol, please post my response, as I am not on TML.
:1. Tom Choquette wasn’t at the meeting and therefore obviously made no offer to the group. The discussion was initiated by me alone without Tom’s knowledge or consent. I suggested it when it became clear to me that the Garden Group did not have sufficient resources to acquire, design, and develop an intentional community of the type they desired.
:2. I didn’t offer the sub-lease you described, but offered to propose such a sub-lease to the Truthseeker’s Board of Directors if the Garden Group was agreeable to terms that I believed the Truthseekers board would require. I made no promises as to their agreement nor any offer of a sub-lease, just a promise bring such a proposal to Truthseekers to see if there were common grounds and interest between the two groups.
:3. Truthseekers is attempting to reach a broad range of young adults and is purposely not tied to the Urantia Book or any religious denomination because we want to convey love, service and forgiveness meanings and values to the young adults and any indication that we are pushing our agenda would be a deterrent to young truth seekers, in our opinion. We don’t tell our participants what our truth is, we encourage them to find their own truth.
:4. The goal of the proposed Truthseekers organic farm in Kentucky is to attract young adults and to steep them in these (and other) meanings and values while providing an environment for growth and mentorship in learning an occupation working with the soil.
:5. No group that wants to publically represent itself in any manner that would impede Truthseekers’ goal will be allowed to participate with our project.
:6. I explained to the Garden Group that if they were interested in community that could support the Truthseekers’ mission, but without the public espousal of their beliefs in the UB or the Magisterial Mission or anything else that would be harmful to the Truthseekers’ goal, then I would propose their involvement to the Truthseekers Board of Directors, of which I am a member. I made it clear that they could privately believe whatever they wanted, but could not impose those beliefs on our young adults.
:7. Before my proposal was even voted on by the Garden Group board, I withdrew it when no one at the gathering was willing to commit to actually moving to a community that the Garden Group proposed to establish – much less our project in Kentucky. The only interest that Truthseekers might have in extending such an offer is if it would assist us in establishing a community to support Truthseekers’ ministry. Without a commitment to assist us in growing a supportive community around our proposed organic farming operation, Truthseekers would have no reason to sublease any property to any group. And I specifically told the Garden Group that when I withdrew my offer to present such a possibility to the Truthseekers’ Board of Directors.
:8. Your characterization of this dialogue and proposal as “post-modern slavery” is so lacking in substance as to be laughable to me, however I want the people to whom you circulated this to understand the circumstances surrounding the exchange so that they can make their own decisions. You weren’t there, so you have no basis, other than hearsay, on which to make such a judgment. Next time call me directly if you want to get both sides of the story before you disparage my intentions and mischaracterize my proposals. We have known each other a long time and you should know that I wouldn’t participate in “post-modern slavery” or any such unsavory activities.
Thank you.
Fred Harris
'''Carol Hurtado wrote: Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 5:20 PM'''
:Rob, Carol Hurtado forwarded me your post to TML.....(ditto above)
'''Rob wrote: Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 7:40 PM'''
One can only wonder what is being defended here, but time will reveal it all.
'''Byron Belitsos wrote: Thursday, Nov 8, 2012 at 1:47 AM'''
Fred, Rob, and friends:
First, I am praying that you two, Fred and Rob, find a way around what sounds to me like a semantic misreading of each other (at least initially). Second, I found Fred's proposal at the end of the weekend's gathering very refreshing and actually very relieving after three days of impractical and imprudent considerations of a community design that is far beyond our means and intentions. Third, I would point out, Fred, that your restriction on "publicity" about UB/TM/MM affiliation seemed odd to me. I say this because you were proposing that Garden Project people actually live in very close proximity to the Truthseekers even while carrying out UB-related activities, education, worship, etc. Seems like this allowance would contravene your desire to allow the youths to seek for truth without specific adult influence. Is it really true that publicity is your only concern?
That said, I think there could be a reasonable "middle way" in this regard (which I realize may already be under consideration). Rather than being completely "mum" about it, why not actually present a wide range of "truth options" to these young people? That could include UB-related materials in a minor way, but only as just one among very many options in the history of religion and revelation. Ironically, that is specifically what Rob Davis provides at his site daynal.org in what he calls the "Primary Corpus" which covers revelatory/religious texts from pre-historic times to the present. Another but related tack might be to develop an explicitly interfaith approach in which everyone present on the land is encouraged to share specifically what their beliefs are in atmosphere of tolerance and inquiry and accompanied by a curriculum in world religions.
In fact I could envision a time when the Truthseeker's curriculum would include not only training in organic farming but also training in "organic truthseeking" in a very broad liberal arts/humanities curriculum. These young minds will want and will need more to do during their six months on the land than learn to farm sustainably and then spend evenings texting people back home on their iPhones. Aside from their work in agriculture, they may need or want training in other skills related to trutheeking such as writing, journalism, researching, debating, public speaking, conflict resolution, peacemaking, and interreligious dialogue. There are many of us interested and qualified to engage in such teaching and mentoring.
There might also be a curriculum in sustainability in the most general sense, inclusive of cosmology and the evolutionary sciences, and disciplines such as environmental sustainability and management, social sustainability (Monjoronson's agenda about which I am soon to publish a book), and such things as "eco-spirituality." I recognize that it would take a good long time to set up such a school, but the point remains that we as community are rich in knowledge in science and religion and I am sure we could quickly get something under way that is much more relevant to young people than narrow "Urantia book" education.
Finally, I will add my unsolicited 2 cents about the policy of not sharing mature adult religious beliefs with young adults: Since all those on the Truthseekers board of directors actually are prominent UB or even TM leaders, I wonder just how you are able to avoid broaching this information to curious young minds. I hadn't thought to ask before how that is carried out. Do you actually omit all mention of the UB to these young folks?
Warm regards,
Byron
'''Fred Harris wrote: Thursday, Nov 8, 2012 at 8:24 AM'''
Thanks, Byron, for your response. I have to admit that I was a bit hot under the collar when I read Rob’s post, as my response probably indicated. Having now cooled off a bit, I think that your comments are important and I would like to address them quickly.
Everything we do is influenced by what we believe and all of our experiences. We can’t really offer any program to youth that isn’t steeped in our own personal history. But what Truthseekers is attempting to do is create an environment where the participants will be encouraged to be open to truth, from whatever source. The best way to teach them is through our actions and not our words (“Preach unceasingly, use words only when necessary”). Actions are the most effective conveyors of ideas. Living the Word, so to speak.
That being said, I don’t think that an Urmia type experience would be bad for the kids, where we bring in people representing differing spiritual perspectives to talk to them. But much like the brothers that ran the Urmia camp, I would prefer that we keep our opinions to ourselves.
An advanced school is certainly a good goal (“organic truthseeking” is a great phrase), but first we need to offer an attractive first step and I think that is organic farming. But I could be wrong. In any event, a school or religion doesn’t seem to me to be much of a draw to most young adults.
Finally, we have attempted to keep UB references out of our discussions with the Truthseekers, not always successfully. Listen, this is a difficult pattern to design and implement and we are always open to ideas to make it better. Thanks for the suggestions. I will think about them as we go forward.
Such a life on such a planet!
Hold high the mission! It shall not fail!!
Lighten Life, Fred
'''Peter Hayman wrote: Friday, Nov 9, 2012 at 9:09 PM'''
Hi Fred,
Firstly, you play good guitar
Second, you've got the spirit
Third, when you stood up and made the offer to present the idea of dovetailing Truthseekers with the Garden Project to Tom and the others I thought it was manna from Heaven
In relation to the labels we chose to define our community: you clearly reminded us of the truth that it isn't so much about what Jesus said, as about how he lived his life
I dunno about you but I haven't heard any fat lady singing, so maybe the party ain't over yet...
:"Give with your heart and love will come to you
:Give with your heart and love will come to you" Laura Nyro
Blessings 10 x 10,
Peter
'''Rob wrote: Friday, Nov 9, 2012 at 9:12 PM'''
Hello Fred-
I am glad to see this sharing in the cycles of growth!
The slavery I point to is the act of segregating one aspect of truth discovery from another. I trust any place devoted to truth 'seeking' would never discourage anyone, resident or visitor, from sharing 'their' truth. Otherwise, I am curious how you can encourage anyone in seeking truth without sharing your own? [1] Also, given you have raised children to adulthood, I am surprised that you think it is ''possible'' for anyone to "impose beliefs on young adults" [2] ;-)
Gratefully,
Rob
*1. "We don’t tell our participants what our truth is, we encourage them to find their own truth."
*2. "I made it clear that they could privately believe whatever they wanted, but could not impose those beliefs on our young adults."