Difference between revisions of "Talk:1992-06-00-Will"

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In both cases, the results prompted the [[Teacher Corps|teaching staff]] to discontinue offering specific [[counsel]] for treatment of terminal diseases.--rdavis 21:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 
In both cases, the results prompted the [[Teacher Corps|teaching staff]] to discontinue offering specific [[counsel]] for treatment of terminal diseases.--rdavis 21:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 +
 +
== tml discussion  ==
 +
 +
Rob Davis wrote on Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:41:
 +
 +
Does anyone know the story of the persons in Woods Cross who died as a result of the experimentation with teachers giving healing advice?
 +
 +
----
 +
Gerdean Bown wrote on Oct. 18th:
 +
 +
Ignorance enshrouds me, but there are "rumors:  (1) The California family with AIDS, which we have heard before, was not healed by "hands-on healing" but that is not the same as somebody who "died as a result of the experimentation with teachers giving healing advice."  To my knowledge there was/is no such thing.  (2) There are also rumors of stories around healing messages being conveyed to Michael "Little House on the Prairie" Landon, who was dying of cancer, but who refused to consider the messages or the modalities because he was preparing to depart for mansonia in the normal, natural way ... without intervention. G.
 +
 +
----
 +
Rob Davis wrote on Oct. 19th:
 +
 +
So, as far as any knows, there was a family some of whom had AIDS and they were seeking healing by some members of the Woods Cross group who according to the teachers' evaluation, "had some skill in these areas", but their prognosis was not altered as a result of the treatment. Then there is the case of Michael Landon who was dying of cancer who may have encountered a similar outcome. Might that be a reasonable assessment of the experience? As we know, all manner of experiments, while potentially of great benefit, come with an elevated level of risk.
 +
 +
----
 +
Steffani Murray wrote on Oct. 19th:
 +
 +
The greatest risk is misunderstanding the goal as always being physical healing in this realm!
 +
Everyone is healed who asks God for healing...but this doesn't always include a resolution of symptoms for the material body. Often the healing consists of attaining peace of mind about the process which is occurring.
 +
 +
91:6.2  Prayer is not a technique for curing real and organic diseases, but it has contributed enormously to the enjoyment of abundant health and to the cure of numerous mental, emotional, and nervous ailments. And even in actual bacterial disease, prayer has many times added to the efficacy of other remedial procedures. Prayer has turned many an irritable and complaining invalid into a paragon of patience and made him an inspiration to all other human sufferers.
 +
 +
After all, as Steve Jobs so wisely spoke about all this...there must be a way to 'make all things new" by clearing out the old to allow space for the next generation. If all humans were immortal, or even exceptionally long lived, they would also have to be a non-reproductive order...or at least one that was far more highly disciplined about reproductive choices...Otherwise population growth would be an insoluable problem.
 +
 +
51:1.8 On Jerusem the loyal children of any Adam and Eve are immortal, but the offspring of a Material Son and Daughter procreated subsequent to their arrival on an evolutionary planet are not thus immune to natural death. There occurs a change in the life-transmitting mechanism when these Sons are rematerialized for reproductive function on an evolutionary world. The Life Carriers designedly deprive the Planetary Adams and Eves of the power of begetting undying sons and daughters. If they do not default, an Adam and Eve on a planetary mission can live on indefinitely, but within certain limits their children experience decreasing longevity with each succeeding generation.
 +
 +
God doesn't ordinarily play favorites or over-ride the natural order as His Sons have created it in time/space. Sometimes healing must occur on the mansion worlds where there is always the potential for upward mobility! The UB has a remakable way of clearing up non-sensible notions and validating that the Powers that Be have a thorough understanding of both reason and scientific probabilities governed by universal LAW relating to life under variable circumstances within Father's vast creation both existential and perfect, and through His Sons experiential, imperfect and perfecting.
 +
 +
37:9.11 The Midway Creatures. In the early days of most inhabited worlds, certain superhuman but materialized beings are of assignment, but they usually retire upon the arrival of the Planetary Adams. The transactions of such beings and the efforts of the Material Sons to improve the evolutionary races often result in the appearance of a limited number of creatures who are difficult to classify. These unique beings are often midway between the Material Sons and the evolutionary creatures; hence their designation, midway creatures. In a comparative sense these midwayers are the permanent citizens of the evolutionary worlds. From the early days of the arrival of a Planetary Prince to the far-distant time of the settling of the planet in light and life, they are the only group of intelligent beings to remain continuously on the sphere. On Urantia the midway ministers are in reality the actual custodians of the planet; they are, practically speaking, the citizens of Urantia. Mortals are indeed the physical and material inhabitants of an evolutionary world, but you are all so short-lived; you tarry on your nativity planet such a short time. You are born, live, die, and pass on to other worlds of evolutionary progression. Even the superhuman beings who serve on the planets as celestial ministers are of transient assignment; few of them are long attached to a given sphere. The midway creatures, however, provide continuity of planetary administration in the face of ever-changing celestial ministries and constantly shifting mortal inhabitants. Throughout all of this never-ceasing changing and shifting, the midway creatures remain on the planet uninterruptedly carrying on their work.
 +
 +
Even IF anyone were healed, they still must transition via death or translation sooner or later!
 +
 +
34:6.9 In every mortal there exists a dual nature: the inheritance of animal tendencies and the high urge of spirit endowment. During the short life you live on Urantia, these two diverse and opposing urges can seldom be fully reconciled; they can hardly be harmonized and unified; but throughout your lifetime the combined Spirit ever ministers to assist you in subjecting the flesh more and more to the leading of the Spirit. Even though you must live your material life through, even though you cannot escape the body and its necessities, nonetheless, in purpose and ideals you are empowered increasingly to subject the animal nature to the mastery of the Spirit. There truly exists within you a conspiracy of spiritual forces, a confederation of divine powers, whose exclusive purpose is to effect your final deliverance from material bondage and finite handicaps.
 +
 +
All Things Considered,
 +
 +
Steff
 +
 +
----
 +
Rob Davis wrote on Oct. 19th:
 +
 +
Hello Steffani-
 +
 +
I couldn't agree more, but I am not concerned with the healing or lack thereof so much as trying to identify a reasonable account of what Will was referring to for the record. Gerdean's comments help, and with but these, I will enter into the discussion page a reference to 1) a family from California with AIDS who were understandably in search of healing, and 2) the actor Michael Landon suffering from terminal cancer who may have considered seeking healing after learning of what was transpiring. In both cases, the results prompted the teaching staff to discontinue offering specific counsel for treatment of terminal diseases.
 +
If any other has additional information that would alter the record, I will appreciate knowing of it.
 +
 +
Gratefully,
 +
 +
Rob
 +
 +
p.s. I forgot to include a link to the talkpage. If anyone would like to add or amend it in anyway, I hope you will offer suggestions.
 +
 +
----
 +
Gerdean Bowen wrote on Oct. 19th at 8:06pm:
 +
 +
This is correct, as far as I know.  HOWEVER, from a later post on this same theme, Michael Landon did not seek healing. It was the TeaM that sought to heal him, thinking he would want it because he had so many loved ones, so many reasons to want to live.  But Michael Landon had a  profound and living faith and was not inclined to mess with this natural means of terrestrial escape; he would not even consider it.
 +
 +
----
 +
Rob Davis wrote on Oct. 19th at 8:31pm:
 +
 +
Thanks Gerdean! I think that warrants amending the talkpage somewhat. It sounds as if Michael Landon's living in Malibu where Duane was living might have been a point of contact, and knowing how persons might wish to explore possibilities, maybe the individuals in Utah sought out not only an opportunity to heal Michael Landon, but to sieze what they may have considered was an opportunity for evangelization using celebrity contact.
 +
 +
----
 +
Gerdean Bowen wrote on Oct. 20th at 12:39 am:
 +
 +
This may be the case, but I would caution against setting up circumstances that did not exist, whatever they might have been.  I'm not sure anybody in Utah sought anything, although I am certain they would have been enthusiastic supporters of whatever miraculous healing might have taken place, if any.
 +
 +
----
 +
Rob Davis wrote on Oct. 20th at 3:31pm:
 +
 +
The only 'circumstance' of concern is the record that begs further inquiry. What I would like to prevent is another inquiriing for ulterior purposes seeking to "set up circumstances that did not exist". The only way to avoid another filling the void with mythology is to supply known facts, and just the facts. If you would amend the existing talkpage, I would invite you to do so by recommending more accurate terminology.
 +
 +
----
 +
Steffani Murray wrote on Oct. 20th at 3:42pm:
 +
 +
I thought it was one of the oldest known female T/R's (don't remember which one) that decided Michael Landon was a special holy person that God would for sure want to heal (physically)...and who then attempted to tell him this message from on high...
 +
Anyone actually know the facts?
 +
 +
Just Curious,
 +
 +
...really don't think it's a matter of any great importance...it's just one more case of wishful thinking gone awry
 +
 +
Steff
 +
 +
----
 +
Gerdean Bowen wrote on Oct. 20th at 4:58pm:
 +
 +
Yes, Rob, that needs amended for sure, because that is not what I said.  You have not quoted me, you have edited me in a way that misrepresents what I wanted to convey.  But you published it, so I would appreciate it if YOU would fix it.  The "accurate terminology" was, to my way of thinking, already submitted in my post to TML, which Daynal modified.
 +
 +
----
 +
Rob Davis wrote on Oct. 20th at 5:19pm:
 +
 +
As I mentioned above, " If you would amend the existing talkpage, I would invite you to do so by recommending more accurate terminology."
 +
 +
----
 +
Gerdean Bowen wrote on Oct. 20th at 5:35pm
 +
 +
Yes, I know, but I don't have time to pick up after your mistakes.  It is your responsibility to be true to the spirit of fraternity, to represent me as your brother.
 +
 +
----
 +
Rob Davis wrote on Oct. 20th at 6:38pm:
 +
 +
I have represented the statements as best I can for the moment, but without further offers of any adjustment to the terminology, I will remove attribution to you and include all comments in this thread allowing readers a better picture of the "facts".--rdavis 23:39, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:39, 20 October 2011

Lighterstill.jpg

In Session 3, Will references a tragic event:

"We felt upon observation that the apparent failure of the healing exercises had certain tragic characteristics. However, I would like to use this opportunity to reaffirm what we all know is truth. If known, of those lives that were lost, the tragedy is two-fold that those unfortunate persons lost the only opportunity that they will ever have to live in material life on a planet such as yours indwelt by a Father fragment and, second, that their companions were deprived of the pleasure of their company. It was certainly a sad event."

"There are no gaps in the Father's plan. His hands hold all and no soul slips through His fingers. However, notwithstanding the tragedy for personalities directly involved, it was seen that the experiment with earthly healing contained more possibility for harm than good and that the program was judged by its failures. I cannot dispute that. My knowledge on this matter is limited and my understanding is that that activity is suspended. That is my present understanding."

Comments from tml (teaching mission list) suggest the following:

In both cases, the results prompted the teaching staff to discontinue offering specific counsel for treatment of terminal diseases.--rdavis 21:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

tml discussion

Rob Davis wrote on Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:41:

Does anyone know the story of the persons in Woods Cross who died as a result of the experimentation with teachers giving healing advice?

Gerdean Bown wrote on Oct. 18th:

Ignorance enshrouds me, but there are "rumors: (1) The California family with AIDS, which we have heard before, was not healed by "hands-on healing" but that is not the same as somebody who "died as a result of the experimentation with teachers giving healing advice." To my knowledge there was/is no such thing. (2) There are also rumors of stories around healing messages being conveyed to Michael "Little House on the Prairie" Landon, who was dying of cancer, but who refused to consider the messages or the modalities because he was preparing to depart for mansonia in the normal, natural way ... without intervention. G.

Rob Davis wrote on Oct. 19th:

So, as far as any knows, there was a family some of whom had AIDS and they were seeking healing by some members of the Woods Cross group who according to the teachers' evaluation, "had some skill in these areas", but their prognosis was not altered as a result of the treatment. Then there is the case of Michael Landon who was dying of cancer who may have encountered a similar outcome. Might that be a reasonable assessment of the experience? As we know, all manner of experiments, while potentially of great benefit, come with an elevated level of risk.

Steffani Murray wrote on Oct. 19th:

The greatest risk is misunderstanding the goal as always being physical healing in this realm! Everyone is healed who asks God for healing...but this doesn't always include a resolution of symptoms for the material body. Often the healing consists of attaining peace of mind about the process which is occurring.

91:6.2 Prayer is not a technique for curing real and organic diseases, but it has contributed enormously to the enjoyment of abundant health and to the cure of numerous mental, emotional, and nervous ailments. And even in actual bacterial disease, prayer has many times added to the efficacy of other remedial procedures. Prayer has turned many an irritable and complaining invalid into a paragon of patience and made him an inspiration to all other human sufferers.

After all, as Steve Jobs so wisely spoke about all this...there must be a way to 'make all things new" by clearing out the old to allow space for the next generation. If all humans were immortal, or even exceptionally long lived, they would also have to be a non-reproductive order...or at least one that was far more highly disciplined about reproductive choices...Otherwise population growth would be an insoluable problem.

51:1.8 On Jerusem the loyal children of any Adam and Eve are immortal, but the offspring of a Material Son and Daughter procreated subsequent to their arrival on an evolutionary planet are not thus immune to natural death. There occurs a change in the life-transmitting mechanism when these Sons are rematerialized for reproductive function on an evolutionary world. The Life Carriers designedly deprive the Planetary Adams and Eves of the power of begetting undying sons and daughters. If they do not default, an Adam and Eve on a planetary mission can live on indefinitely, but within certain limits their children experience decreasing longevity with each succeeding generation.

God doesn't ordinarily play favorites or over-ride the natural order as His Sons have created it in time/space. Sometimes healing must occur on the mansion worlds where there is always the potential for upward mobility! The UB has a remakable way of clearing up non-sensible notions and validating that the Powers that Be have a thorough understanding of both reason and scientific probabilities governed by universal LAW relating to life under variable circumstances within Father's vast creation both existential and perfect, and through His Sons experiential, imperfect and perfecting.

37:9.11 The Midway Creatures. In the early days of most inhabited worlds, certain superhuman but materialized beings are of assignment, but they usually retire upon the arrival of the Planetary Adams. The transactions of such beings and the efforts of the Material Sons to improve the evolutionary races often result in the appearance of a limited number of creatures who are difficult to classify. These unique beings are often midway between the Material Sons and the evolutionary creatures; hence their designation, midway creatures. In a comparative sense these midwayers are the permanent citizens of the evolutionary worlds. From the early days of the arrival of a Planetary Prince to the far-distant time of the settling of the planet in light and life, they are the only group of intelligent beings to remain continuously on the sphere. On Urantia the midway ministers are in reality the actual custodians of the planet; they are, practically speaking, the citizens of Urantia. Mortals are indeed the physical and material inhabitants of an evolutionary world, but you are all so short-lived; you tarry on your nativity planet such a short time. You are born, live, die, and pass on to other worlds of evolutionary progression. Even the superhuman beings who serve on the planets as celestial ministers are of transient assignment; few of them are long attached to a given sphere. The midway creatures, however, provide continuity of planetary administration in the face of ever-changing celestial ministries and constantly shifting mortal inhabitants. Throughout all of this never-ceasing changing and shifting, the midway creatures remain on the planet uninterruptedly carrying on their work.

Even IF anyone were healed, they still must transition via death or translation sooner or later!

34:6.9 In every mortal there exists a dual nature: the inheritance of animal tendencies and the high urge of spirit endowment. During the short life you live on Urantia, these two diverse and opposing urges can seldom be fully reconciled; they can hardly be harmonized and unified; but throughout your lifetime the combined Spirit ever ministers to assist you in subjecting the flesh more and more to the leading of the Spirit. Even though you must live your material life through, even though you cannot escape the body and its necessities, nonetheless, in purpose and ideals you are empowered increasingly to subject the animal nature to the mastery of the Spirit. There truly exists within you a conspiracy of spiritual forces, a confederation of divine powers, whose exclusive purpose is to effect your final deliverance from material bondage and finite handicaps.

All Things Considered,

Steff

Rob Davis wrote on Oct. 19th:

Hello Steffani-

I couldn't agree more, but I am not concerned with the healing or lack thereof so much as trying to identify a reasonable account of what Will was referring to for the record. Gerdean's comments help, and with but these, I will enter into the discussion page a reference to 1) a family from California with AIDS who were understandably in search of healing, and 2) the actor Michael Landon suffering from terminal cancer who may have considered seeking healing after learning of what was transpiring. In both cases, the results prompted the teaching staff to discontinue offering specific counsel for treatment of terminal diseases. If any other has additional information that would alter the record, I will appreciate knowing of it.

Gratefully,

Rob

p.s. I forgot to include a link to the talkpage. If anyone would like to add or amend it in anyway, I hope you will offer suggestions.

Gerdean Bowen wrote on Oct. 19th at 8:06pm:

This is correct, as far as I know. HOWEVER, from a later post on this same theme, Michael Landon did not seek healing. It was the TeaM that sought to heal him, thinking he would want it because he had so many loved ones, so many reasons to want to live. But Michael Landon had a profound and living faith and was not inclined to mess with this natural means of terrestrial escape; he would not even consider it.

Rob Davis wrote on Oct. 19th at 8:31pm:

Thanks Gerdean! I think that warrants amending the talkpage somewhat. It sounds as if Michael Landon's living in Malibu where Duane was living might have been a point of contact, and knowing how persons might wish to explore possibilities, maybe the individuals in Utah sought out not only an opportunity to heal Michael Landon, but to sieze what they may have considered was an opportunity for evangelization using celebrity contact.

Gerdean Bowen wrote on Oct. 20th at 12:39 am:

This may be the case, but I would caution against setting up circumstances that did not exist, whatever they might have been. I'm not sure anybody in Utah sought anything, although I am certain they would have been enthusiastic supporters of whatever miraculous healing might have taken place, if any.

Rob Davis wrote on Oct. 20th at 3:31pm:

The only 'circumstance' of concern is the record that begs further inquiry. What I would like to prevent is another inquiriing for ulterior purposes seeking to "set up circumstances that did not exist". The only way to avoid another filling the void with mythology is to supply known facts, and just the facts. If you would amend the existing talkpage, I would invite you to do so by recommending more accurate terminology.

Steffani Murray wrote on Oct. 20th at 3:42pm:

I thought it was one of the oldest known female T/R's (don't remember which one) that decided Michael Landon was a special holy person that God would for sure want to heal (physically)...and who then attempted to tell him this message from on high... Anyone actually know the facts?

Just Curious,

...really don't think it's a matter of any great importance...it's just one more case of wishful thinking gone awry

Steff

Gerdean Bowen wrote on Oct. 20th at 4:58pm:

Yes, Rob, that needs amended for sure, because that is not what I said. You have not quoted me, you have edited me in a way that misrepresents what I wanted to convey. But you published it, so I would appreciate it if YOU would fix it. The "accurate terminology" was, to my way of thinking, already submitted in my post to TML, which Daynal modified.

Rob Davis wrote on Oct. 20th at 5:19pm:

As I mentioned above, " If you would amend the existing talkpage, I would invite you to do so by recommending more accurate terminology."

Gerdean Bowen wrote on Oct. 20th at 5:35pm

Yes, I know, but I don't have time to pick up after your mistakes. It is your responsibility to be true to the spirit of fraternity, to represent me as your brother.

Rob Davis wrote on Oct. 20th at 6:38pm:

I have represented the statements as best I can for the moment, but without further offers of any adjustment to the terminology, I will remove attribution to you and include all comments in this thread allowing readers a better picture of the "facts".--rdavis 23:39, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

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