1983-07-27-First Mansion World Problems
Topic: First Mansion World Problems
Group: At Large
Contact Personality: Alan
Karen: Very good. I have to go back to work on Monday. After a three week vacation.
DOC: It'll be good for you.
Karen: Yeah. Responsibility. Social contact.
DOC: I understand you wanted to ask some questions about my experience on the first mansion world.
Karen: Yeah, I would like some insight there. I think, as I mentioned before, I'm a little obsessed with this book I'm finishing up and I think that this book has a lot to do with the things that will be worked out on the first mansion world. It has to do with "aberrated sexual drives," paucity in the home life, the rearing of children, experiencing of parenthood, these kinds of things. My understanding is that we'll go to the first mansion world to fix that.
DOC: Yes, primarily those things are worked out on the first mansion world.
Karen: Well, I don't know how to ask, but would you talk a little bit about your experiences on the first mansion world. I'm sure I'll go there. I suspect most of my friends will go there.
DOC: I gather, since you have been writing a book on sexual aberrations, as you call it, I suspect that's what you'd like me to talk about.
DOC: Well, ask some questions. I could talk for hours and....
Karen: I suppose. Well, let's try to limit it a little bit. I am specifically addressing the subject in this book about homosexuality. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Our society doesn't exactly approve of it, but my feeling is that the ideal relationship between two people or three people or any number of people is founded on love for one another in the highest sense whatever the highest sense may be at that given time, or at that moment. Now here, in the realm of homosexuality, that's aberrated. Somebody would call it aberrated.
I don't think it's aberrated if it's having to do with love. It does hail from our Father. The concern you have for a person, even if they're of the same sex, doesn't take away from the value of the relationship. I know this. I feel this and I believe this, but still, since we who are females will be females throughout eternity and we who are males will be males throughout eternity, it throws me into a bit of a dither there.
What happens on the first mansion world when this thing allegedly gets straightened out? What happens to...? Is it an issue?
DOC: What happens to the evolving personality? Is this what you're asking?
DOC: They go to the satellite spheres where the material sons and daughters are and they spend their time with the material sons and daughters until such time as these things are satisfactorily worked out. Now who's the judge and who's going to determine the word 'satisfactorily' is not for either me nor you to make the determination, but the key to it is 'satisfactorily'. Now the thing is Jesus himself wouldn't and couldn't and won't stand in judgment of Lucifer. He has others who will do that so nobody can stand in judgment of these things, not even on the first mansion world. Not even in the homes of the Adams.
Karen: Well, let me ask this. The other night we were talking with the -- Mighty Messenger was it?
Karen: Who had a 'matey' who was working on the planet also. It may have been you. But he had a mate. Now, our conception of 'matey' or of the mating process here on Urantia, culturally and generally, has been the male with the female. Is it, or does it exist in the universe where there are two — and I'll switch over here — two passive types in conjunction with each other as well as two aggressive types. That is to say, are there partnerships of the male personality going on into eternity or ultimately do we end up with a passive and an aggressive, a male and a female, in the eternal career.
DOC: Not necessarily. Let's back up here for a minute. The Mighty Messenger did not talk in terms of a mate, so be very careful of your terminology here. He spoke of someone with whom he was working.
Again, we're dealing with the English language; we're working with words that you give me to deal with. Let's go back to the beginning: male and female, passive, retiring, aggressive, however you want to look at it, in terms of the evolving mortal, are created and functional primarily for the purpose of procreation. The evolving of the races. If this didn't happen, the planet would end up being non-evolving because it takes people to evolve any planet. That goes all the way to God and the Thought Adjusters. So if we weren't evolving it would be a dead planet.
Now, you have read in the UB where it talks in terms of complimentary. There's one thing you're overlooking. That is that in all energy systems, there is always a duality. Again, it goes back to 'satisfactory resolution' -- satisfactory working out. The whole issue is being able to unite two energies together that compliment each other. Now take a moment and look at your seraphim. Very carefully, now, look at your seraphim. Your seraphim are designated 'she' and yet there are two, whenever you come into the third psychic circle, each one of you have two. One is always on duty, the other is in a passive state, and they are both designated as she. Right?
Karen: I've never heard it as 'him'.
DOC: You've never heard her referred to as anything but she, correct me if I'm wrong.
DOC: Now they are complimentary or they could not both work together on the same issue. Correct?
DOC: Does that help?
Karen: Yes it does.
DOC: And do they or do they not, interestingly enough, if you find it worth your while, do they not continue to evolve with you?
Karen: They certainly do.
DOC: So if you as recognizable as a female entity then would be evolving with two female seraphim, wouldn't you? So there's a whole bunch of females right there.
Karen: Yes, indeed.
Karen: Yes. I'm in good company.
DOC: Tim, do you have any questions about this?
Tom: Not right off the top.
DOC: All right. There are several keys you have to look at. The issue in all of the early phase of early evolution is learning to work together. Now, the UB says that men must learn to raise children and must be as responsible in raising children as women. Now the society that I'm visiting today, this is not so, except in isolated cases. It's still a type of society where women is supposed to raise the children. Well, this is not complimentary, is it?
DOC: It's imbalanced, so it's just as imbalanced as your initial question.
Karen: Good analogy.
DOC: So putting these things in balance where they become complimentary is the key to the whole thing. To the whole evolutionary plan. Okay, so looking at this business of Tom and Alan as soul mates and they have made the decision that they would like to evolve spiritually through the rest of their sojourn together. This is very possible because as long as they are complimentary, the resolution is one that is satisfactory. Now I do not make that value judgment; you do not make that value judgment. Do you understand what I'm saying?
Tom: Well who makes it?
DOC: For instance if let's say a — this is going to sound very gross. Let's say a sex change comes up to first mansion world. Personally I have known very few who have made it, let's say a sex change who has actually gone through the operation, the physical transformation with — and certain psychic, mindal changes have taken place also because of the implantation of hormones and different things. This is an aberration. This.... working out a satisfactory solution to that is quite a problem. A lot of work. Now, could you find a satisfactory way to resolve that?
Karen: My inclination would be to—
DOC: Could you? In all honesty? Put yourselves in the position of making that decision?
Tom: Not I.
DOC: Thank you. A little humility goes a long way. Very good. Not even the particular Adam and Eve in whose home this poor, deprived person would go to, could make this decision. They do the work. Like I do. As a Morontia Companion, I do work; I offer my services, my companionship and all these things. I'm a guide, a teacher, but judgments of this sort are out of my hands. So, that's just to give you some idea.
Karen: The impact of man and woman is primarily for, and it's overtly presented, for propagation of the human race.
Karen: And consistency and continuation of evolution.
DOC: And civilization, because it immediately involves the maintenance of that evolution which would lend itself to property and there cannot be any kind of solidified society without the maintenance of property.
DOC: So it's a fundamental, basic kind of thing. But his is also done between members of the same sex. Successfully. If this were not so we would be clamoring and putting pressure on the revelatory commission to strike all those paragraphs right out of Rodan of Alexandria because we would consider it misleading. But of course that would never happen. Do you understand, Tom?
Tom: You lost me about three minutes ago.
DOC: Ask questions.
Tom: You were talking about property? Why must there be...?
DOC: You have to maintain yourselves, right? You maintain yourselves better, more productively, when you have someone that you care for.
DOC: When you have a situation other than singular; when you have goals established and things you can work for. Property, the maintenance of property, includes such things as institutions, the creations and maintaining of your institutions, which are the bulwark and the doors which society uses, goes in and out of, to learn by and to evolve. So it all gets down to the business-- back in the old days I could take what was yours and you could take what was mine and we could resolve that by killing each other off. And to the victor go the spoils. What were the spoils? A hut? A woman and a baby, maybe. Lion's teeth. An ass. But then when things evolved to an agricultural society, then it became grazing land, water rights, cattle, sheep, and that was how society evolved so the ownership of grazing land, the ownership of cattle, numbers of cattle was an indication of wealth and it immediately became an institution that did that. And it had to be maintained. And as a result society progressed. Mankind progressed. Understand?
DOC: So that's what we mean when we say property.
DOC: Well, pottery-making, weaving, story-telling are all the early stages of culture which eventuated in the printed word, the printed page, and the UB is a result of that. And your communicators, your telecommunications, all of these things are progressive! All of which would never have occurred if there hadn't been a maintenance thing.
Now I'd like to say one more thing before we get off this subject. We were speaking rather philosophically about all this. There — now, we have to look at the mores. I believe people are saying in your society, are they not, AIDS is God's disease to get rid of the homosexuals? But, look at it for just a moment. What the people are saying, whether they realize it or not, as I understand it, is: we can't stand any more promiscuity. We're not criticizing the fact that two members of the same sex are together; what we don't like is the promiscuity; the rank savagery that's involved.
Statistically they have discovered that the majority of the cases of AIDS are people who have had oh, perhaps, something like 100 liaison contacts within a month. Rank savagery. So it's -- in a way, their protest has merit.
Karen: I... You're being philosophic now, Doc. I will give some credence to it, yes, but frankly I don't feel that people who are out there with banners that say "It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" "Sodomy is sin" — I think they're missing the whole boat and I don't think they're concerning themselves with the frequency of any individual's sex life. The fact--
DOC: I specifically brought up the subject of AIDS as an example and said that people have some understanding here because of promiscuity. Now I'm not going to take on the issue of pros and cons of peoples' attitudes concerning picketing and so forth. My point was promiscuity. And rank savagery. So this is why the mores, why people have negative attitudes in today's society about a lot of these issues. Their attitudes would be completely different about these things if let's say two women who were having an affair together of maintaining property in the same manner as their next door neighbors who have been married for 20 years and who are raising a family. Do you understand what I am trying to say?
Karen: Yes, I do. They want civilized behavior. Whatever you do in the privacy of your bedroom is okay, but let's have civilized behavior on the street.
DOC: And you don't always have to be in a baseball uniform in the front yard.
Karen: Right. Our society is not too keen on two people of the same sex rearing children.
DOC: Again, it's a reflection on the promiscuity. On the lack of disciplines. You see it takes discipline for a man and a woman to prevent divorce long enough to raise a family. Well if it's hard enough for a man and woman, then it's hard enough for two people of the same sex to do that. Especially in the complex society of today. But none of this has to do with the satisfactory resolution of the problem when we come to the mansion worlds except in terms of looseness, promiscuity, savagery. Savage behavior is not conducive to spiritual growth.
Karen: Very good, Doc.
DOC: Any questions? Did anybody learn anything?
Karen: I've been rather reinforced. With what I've thought.
DOC: As long as you want to go, you'll go. It's.just like—well, it'll all fall into place.
Karen: I want to go.
DOC: Any questions?
Tom: Not at all.
Karen: Could we take a short break?
Karen: Trust. I trust my Father in heaven explicitly at least I like to think I do. Many of the things I go through I trust that he knows what's going on and will pull me through that I'll learn something from him, but I sometimes have trouble trusting my fellows and what bothers me even more is that I see so much mistrust and suspicion in my peers. Of course if we were to trust our Father more, we might trust our fellows more.
JACK: Well it would be very difficult for me to talk about that in a blanket — I can address the subject as far as you personally are concerned.
July 29, 1983
Karen: ….. what the prognosis is.
Tom: I feel this is a subject for Doc. I don't know if—
JACK: I'll tackle it.
Tom: Okay. Great.
JACK: Well, the status? Pitiful. Prognosis? Slow.
The State of New Mexico, the general New Mexico area is still suffering under two major burdens. One, the Catholic church; and Two, distance. Included in that subject of wide, open distances is the spirit of independence; the spirit of frontiersman-ship, so it's difficult. Difficult to bring about anything cohesive. At this point you just have to go along with what you've got.
Karen: Well, good. It's nice to know we're not totally at fault. Those are things that we've observed. That I've observed. It's not really a society-oriented State. It is very independent.
JACK: I'm surprised - politically, being as independent as they are, that they vote Democratic as often as they do.
Karen: They're followers, because I think of the Catholic church. It's the same comfort in numbers. But to stand out and follow a revelation, going against those two aspects...
JACK: You have a lot of very, very independent spirits here. Independent souls. A lot of frontiersman-ship. This is the frontier. And people who live outside the metropolitan areas lead a rather rugged life, a very independent life and they are not followers, not joiners, and they're not concerned with your spiritual welfare.
Karen: They're not church-goers either, particularly.
JACK: They're not concerned with your spiritual welfare. So it's going to take time. If you maintain what you've got, with all its paucity—
Karen: I think we've got a pretty firm foothold with all the paucity and from my vantage point I see the prognosis isn't bad. It could be a lot worse.
JACK: I have a few suggestions. You might want to urge Chicago to politically keep you on Route 66. In other words, as a nice little way-station. If you develop a way-station attitude—
Karen: An outpost.
JACK: Exactly. Here's a good place to get the information for what happens in the West. Out here in the desert. This is a good oasis. Stop here for a night and make contact. That kind of a thing. If you could start that kind of thing you would have a lot more input from around the world. And it's going to take more than Edith to do that.
Karen: I would think so. Now, Virginia does act in that capacity quite a bit. She has a pretty active hostel up there [in Santa Fe].
JACK: Yes, you have to keep that kind of thing going so that you can— you know, this is the kind of thing that Jesus did. He went right down to the crossroad where the caravans came into town, right?
JACK: This is where the camels were being watered. This is where the donkeys were being unloaded. This is where the hay—the people were feeding their beasts of burden, wiping the dust from their brow and trying to get their supplies, clean up a little bit and he was there to talk to those people; he learned what was going on around the world that way. He learned about his fellowman. Now if you could help to get that kind of thing going here in Albuquerque for your fellow sojourners, your fellow Urantians, they're coming and going all the time.
Karen: It would open up a lot of avenues.
JACK: It's still Route 66, you know, and they're coming and going all the time and Albuquerque is a natural stop-over. It always has been and it always will be, but they've got to know about you. They've got to know that this is a place to stop.
Karen: That we're friendly.
JACK: Yes. And you can learn about people; you can learn more about them, about the movement, and this will stimulate your group. There was an inquiry, Alan received an inquiry that was sent from Washington for your newsletter called The Golden Age. This was the first newsletter you put out. You've since changed the name and that's all right. I bring this up to let you know that somebody from another state has suddenly become aware of the original newsletter and asked to be put on the mailing list. That's something to follow through with. Don't put these burdens on Ethyl; she's going to crack. Especially when she's carrying the burden of the saint.
Tom: What do we do? Just give them our name and addresses and say, if you're in the area stop by or call to meet some fellow Urantians?
JACK: Exactly. Do it in your next newsletter. Be sure this newsletter gets mailed out to key people in key states. You've got access to all of those names in all of those areas and be sure that Chicago gets your newsletter, and send it also to the groups listed in those original groups, those people, those groups, those cities that turned in their names. You've got the money in the bank. Pay for the extra postage and the extra copies and send them, and make it the theme of the next newsletter exactly this. And there's your public outreach. Let them know, on your next visit stop into Albuquerque, as you suggested Tom. That these people here would be happy to pick you up at the airport
or at the train station or the bus station or at the camel dump. And you know, we have a bed, we have a couch, we have a pull-down we have a sleeping bag.
Karen: We're right across the street from a motel.
JACK: Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
Karen: Sure do. Sure do. Very good ideas.
Tom: It's brotherly.
Karen: And we haven't talked about the newsletter in a long time either, so it was nice of Jack to remind us.
JACK: A responsibility. You have a perfect avenue to make outreach with your fellow sojourners, your fellow man. Just because someone has found the Urantia Book doesn't mean they have found Nirvana, that they have resolved their personal problems. They may be going through an intellectual struggle just digesting the verbiage, the words, the sentence structure or the paragraph structure in the Urantia Book. But you know all of that is well and good, all of that will be taken care of in time; what these people need is the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man. 2,000 pages later, when all is said and done.
Karen: We are a little slow here.
JACK: Well I'm glad you're positive about my suggestion here.
Tom: An excellent suggestion.
JACK: In case Tom doesn't know, the monies that were sent in for the Golden Age...
Tom: Yeah, I know.
JACK: So your local Urantia group has a lot of money in the bank. Over $100. Not $200.
Karen: Do you have a suggestion as to our next theme in addition to this outpost, coming and going, we want to be friendly?
JACK: You might want to include brotherhood.
Tom: Stop by and see us.
JACK: People, a lot of people, still think that New Mexico is South of the border, who don't understand — you may find that hard to believe especially people who read the UB, now there is a state called New Mexico and there are actual people living there besides the Indians and Mexicans, so when they think in terms of this area they really think of Indians, Indian blankets, peace pipes and turquoise jewelry.
It still has a wonderment and fascination to it and it overwhelms them a little bit; to a certain extent they're threatened by it and they, too, have built a certain thought in their minds as to what you would be like so let them know you're friendly. Send it out to them, to all of them, that you welcome them, that you eagerly welcome them when they pass through. Why don't you work on that one. (Reference to Colorado Urantians.) You as Urantians are not viable (to Colorado). There's your big problem. You can be as controversial as you wish to be. You aren't viable.
Tom: What do you mean? Accessible? Or...?
JACK: You're the ones who are going to have to make the effort to let 48 mainland states know that you are part of the United States. We're alive and well in Albuquerque.
Tom: We have a saint. We have a prophet.
JACK: Any questions? Target date should be established. (Discussion on "Your Harvest Issue.")
Tom: Is there a visitor?
JACK: Doc is here.
Karen: Which Doc is that?
DOC: How are you this evening, Karen? Tom?
Karen: Pretty good, thanks.
DOC: I'm happy to hear that. Do you have any questions?
Karen: I wish I did. I heard you guys have had lots and lots and lots of dialog and insights. I'm not necessarily interested in having my brain picked but I always enjoyed things that have to do with psychiatry and psychology and the mind and the aberrations of the mind, genesis of the mind, but I don't have any prepared questions.
DOC: Well, primarily we've been discussing, in AA vernacular, character defects. I don't particularly like that term, but we've been discussing the origins and manifestations of selfishness and self-centeredness and how it — from my choice of presentation — they're a rather root to all the other problems; the rather root excuse of lust, abject selfishness. But when I discuss these things I don't discuss them in terms of clinical aberrations. I like to discuss them in terms of generalities. I'm not dealing with clinically disturbed people. If I were it would be impossible to do it in this kind of environment, through this channel, so we're not dealing with that. We are dealing with some very subtle manifestations with the humanoid.
Sometimes society's subtle manifestations can be very destructive. But generally that's what we've been discussing. It's a big bag.
Karen: Lust? Selfishness? Self-centeredness?
DOC: The conflicts they create. I make the comment that lust has probably killed almost as many people as religion has. It's been the root cause of many wars and fights as religion.
Karen: And the Urantia Book does mention that the sex urge uncurtailed can cause fierce havoc and damage and it lays on very thick overtones as to what can come about as a result of that. But I appreciate also what you're saying about religion as well, how when the church is crammed down your throat, when dogma has aberrated your thinking. That is dangerous to the spirit as well.
DOC: Any questions, please? Well let me ask a few questions. In terms of human relations, how do we feel tonight? Karen, how do you feel in terms of human relations tonight?
Karen: Well I feel, on the whole, very good about my relationships with everybody. I'm not having any problem with anybody unless it might be with my sister. And she might be having a problem of her own and not feeling much at peace with herself so that might have something to do with it. She's a very difficult girl to get along with. So all my local relationships I find in good standing. And of course I'm on holiday so a lot of my relationships are temporarily curtailed, a nice respite. I'm very pleased, actually, with the way the universe is presenting personalities to me and the way we're getting along.
DOC: Do you feel that you're growing in insight?
Karen: Yes, I feel that I am because I don't feel nagged. I don't feel complacent. I'm not having any of those conflicts that I'm prone to have when I'm not growing so I know I'm growing. Now whether I'm growing specifically in insight I don't know. I haven't thought about that. I would imagine a person is going to grow in insight if they experience new experiences even with the same people. Learning to love somebody involves insight into who they are and where their values are, their interests, their needs. I suppose I am growing in insight.
Tom: I feel that I am growing in insight in myself and through that I can understand other people because I'm learning to deal with my prejudices and I see why I have a specific thing against this type of people or group or certain area....
DOC: The "beaners?"
Tom: Yeah. The "beaners." Women. Things like that. But I'm learning a lot. Especially in the area of women. I think I'm growing in that area. I'm coming out of my infancy in that area because my thing about women is based on prejudice and probably resentment, shit like that. I still have a lot of work to do but I 'm at peace. I'm peaceful inside around people. I don't show any phonyness or I try to appear as real as possible as what I am and I really like that. I like who I am and because of that I like them. I guess I'm starting to cut the act. I'm trying.
DOC: We discussed one time that perhaps the best possible way to deal with certain conflicts is not a matter of ignoring those conflicts but by being able to — the AA principle of helping another person is not exclusive to AA or new to AA — it's the very foundation of Jesus' life, that he demonstrated, and that is to be of service and many times just the act of being of service (the ultimate of service, of course, is doing God's will) automatically takes care of the conflicts or whatever paucity may be stirring at the surface level of awareness, causing the problem — lack of self-esteem, things like that. So sometimes just going about your daily life and making every effort possible to maintain your sense of service ministry and to do God's will just takes care of all this. We talked also about the necessity of restructuring through behavior modification, discipline the sub-conscious mind. This is another way of controlling your immediate environment, your immediate environment is... Karen?
Karen: Your home.
DOC: No. Your ....
Karen: Oh. Your relationship with your Thought Adjuster.
DOC: Your body. Your immediate environment is your body. The next most important extenuation of that is whatever physical environment you might be in. Now this is accomplished through — we discussed this at great length, so this is a bit of a review for Tim and Alan — but we discussed at great length how you cannot allow your subconscious mind to reason, to control your life. This is where (because it lacks reason) it throws people into mental and emotional chaos and all these things, because emotions being a sensation, a feeling, the sense of feeling are controlled by the subconscious mind. All these things are under the general area of automatic response, mechanisms, these things. So I have suggested that a good way to start would be something Alan had talked about a long time ago and that was when he clued off and he said, well, what I'm going to do is tell my subconscious mind:
"I'm going to go to sleep. You may play all you want all night long but when we get up in the morning I'm going to be in charge. You've had your fun. You're going to come back out of the sandbox and you're going to do what you're told to do and we're going to go on about our day."
And we worked with this for awhile and then Tom said, "I'm not even going to allow my subconscious mind that time. Because if it's true that if the Thought Adjuster works on our mind while we are asleep, or our seraphim minister to us while we're at rest, while we're sleeping, that the Thought Adjuster, if he's self-acting, can leave at that time of rest, then it's not well to have the subconscious mind ————