Talk:2012-08-16-I Am the Lamb of God

Rob wrote: On 8/16/2012 9:01 PM

Thanks for sharing Ron! It is quite interesting to witness this expression of affinity between an Avonal Son and the Original Michael, the presiding head of the primary Paradise Sons. Apparently, e.g. judging from lack of mention in the Urantia text and elsewhere, there is no "original Avonal", hence the identification of at least the incarnating orders of Paradise sonship with the Original Michael.

In this vein, I have often wondered why we have orders of Paradise sonship that originate in the union of :

1. Michaels - Father-Son origin 2. Avonals - Son-Spirit origin 3. Daynals - Trinity origin

but no order derived from the union of Father-Spirit associated with the fourth triunity. I would welcome the thoughts of yours and any others on this point.

Ron wrote: Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:57 PM

Hi Rob,

I have heard enough from the Deity Voices that there are billions of unrevealed Sons of God including those who are derived from the Father and the Spirit. There is no inkling that there are Sons of God trinitized by the individual Deities. The Eternal Son, by himself, creates super-personal Sons and they are not revealed to us as they have no connection to our ascension career. The Father trinitizes Sons of God in conjunction with his coordinates on Paradise and has no revealed Sons strictly created by the Father. He can and does personalize his Fragments and they remind me very much like SONS of God but they are not so classified. Now the Infinite Spirit is a very special case because he has some most unusual roles to fulfill. While we have no report of Sons personalized only by the Infinite Spirit, I am not so sure he refrains from creating Sons of the Infinite Spirit in his dual role as the Conjoint Actor! I know, I am guessing, but think about it: The Father and the Son have empowered the Infinite Spirit to act JOINTLY for them and we know that the Infinite Spirit can and does create magnificent beings in perfect Havona that surely must qualify as Sons of God that descend!

This I think is worth looking at too:

The Son-Spirit union is the architect of the Time-Space creation. It is they who created the patterns for the seven superuniverses and within whom we find destiny. We do not find our ascension destiny in the Father-Spirit union which is the architect for the patterns of the outer space region.

Notice we have no descending Son taking origin in the Father-Spirit union in the seven superuniverses! I think part of the answer lies in the fact that the Father-Spirit union will likely portray itself through Sons it creates for service with the undisclosed regents of the four outer space regions.

Notice that our space area of the seven superuniverses is serviced by the Ancients of Days as Trinity Sons empowered to use their offices for the design disclosures of the heart of matter which is the ultimaton. In the outer space areas, the unrevealed regents will disclose no more than the Ancients of Days regarding the ultimaton, but there will be non-linear energy manifestations that the Father-Spirit can only address. Thus we see, I believe, how the Fourth Triunity (I am accepting your statement this is where the Father-Spirit union is manifested since I have not looked it up) becomes vital for the growth of regions beyond the seven superuniverses.

I find it satisfying even though I do not comprehend how the Avonal Son compliments his parentage in the very creative union which designed time-space and its cohering destiny in the Universal Father.

Somehow Monjoronson is that very essence of the same pattern that gave expressions to this universe. It is the Creator Sons who electrify the patterns, juice them up and make them live, while the Monjoronson's give expression to the Father's desire for peace and harmony within them. The first Triodity is the Paradise Control of our world and universe since it embodies the Son and the Spirit as the Conjoint Actor and the absolute pattern of matter as our world in Paradise. These expressions are absolute, but are attenuated by the Avonal Sons through the Creator Son creations. The first Triodity integrates all God learns from the creative intentions of the Son-Spirit union.

But you can not disregard two other very important things:

1) The Father husbands the Eternal Son's mandate to live life to the fullest without bringing harm to others;

2) The Father embraces all features of creativity, and as such, is in every decision and in every action, on behalf of all creations whether that is Havona or the fourth outer space level.

The Supreme is beholden to the Father, yet acts independently of the mind gravity control of the Master Spirits! The Supreme compliments the Father by bringing to life that which can not be sustained without the Father in all things. In this revelation, the Father upholds all acts of the Supreme providing they are also complimentary to the Creator Sons.

This is precisely why the first Triodity has as its acting agent the Conjoint Actor. It is the Conjoint Actor who speaks for both the Father and the Son without initiating the precepts of infinity even while this Triodity is absolute in intention, it acts for the Supreme on Paradise by extension. No things are better done anywhere than in the first Triodity insofar as the time-space regions are concerned since it is this Triodity that blends and makes time-space cohere in the infinite acts of the Trinity. The Trinity partakes of the outer space levels as one unit to determine purpose and then relaxes its cohesiveness in order to allow development. In the outer space regions, God becomes Ultimate while the Trinity remains Absolute experientially and infinitely existential. This explains the duality of the First Triodity as an act of the will of God to simultaneously be One while differentiating into the many. Without the First Triodity the Fourth Triunity becomes an orphan, and while there are seven (7) Triunities revealed, the additional eight (8) are without parentage at this stage of universe development. Only in the Second Triodity do the eight unrevealed Triunities exist and are even now given space to develop.

The Fourth Triunity is experientially difficult to perceive since it deals with the Unqualified Absolute. But if we remember that the Unqualified Absolute is neither infinite or existential, but an extension of Paradise in fact, then we can make the judgement that all things material cohere in the Master Spirit who speaks for the Father-Son union to time-space, and that Master Spirit Number Five who speaks on Paradise in the presence of the Infinite Spirit to answer all concerns regarding the question of Ultimacy where it goes and how it runs the universes beyond the space boundaries of the seven superuniverses.

Master Spirit Number Five, Mantrinaya, has a relationship to the Fourth Triunity. This relationship can be compared to the work of the Trinity by its various levels of reality comprehension in noting that Mantrinaya speaks for God the Ultimate to the Triunity involved, while he also has the knowledge of the superuniverse liaison between the Supreme and the Ultimate. It is in this relationship that determines how the Fourth Triunity becomes involved with Supremacy as well as Ultimacy and, figuartively speaking, with the yet undetermined presence-whereabouts of the Consummator of Universe Destiny.

Master Spirit Number Six, Luminaya, speaks for the Son-Spirit union and has a relationship to the Third Triunity that is unrevealed, but think about it for a moment. Son-Spirit patterns dominate our area of space. Luminaya must have some part to play in the extension of space into our area where the superuniverses took shape. The Third Triunity, while subordinate to the Paradise Trinity, is nonetheless applicable to the unity to the Paradise Trinity without being a unanimity. Therefore, the patterns of the Father-Son are resident, as well as the ascension-destiny proscriptions in this Third Triunity, and Luminaya speaks effectively about how Father-son patterns cohere in the ascension destinies. Much of the work of the third Triunity is preparing the Master Universe for self-extension even beyond the fourth outer space levels!

One last word before we go:

The Triunities do not exist isolated from each other. They exist as a community on Paradise. Their projections are to be found and are located near the sixth sector of the seven levels of Havona and are extensions of Paradise quite near the twenty-one Paradise Secret Spheres. We have been talking about the Fourth Triunity and some about the Third Triunity, but we have not identified the source of thought that brings them into effective liaison on Paradise. That liaison power is none other than the Paradise Father who brings all Triunities, present and future, into a balance before [i.e. presented to] the Master Spirits so that they may hear the deliberations of the Deities insofar as it correlates to their work in time-space and even out into the four outer space levels.

This dissertation is courtesy of Siraya, Master Spirit Number One, the Voice of the Father with the help of Siraya's consorts, Master Spirit Number Two (Kuwaya - Voice of The Eternal Son)). Master Spirit Number Four (Ociliaya, Voice of the Father-Son), Master Spirit Number Five (Mantrinaya - Voice of the Father-Spirit creativity, and of God the Ultimate) and the rest is through the work of the Master Spirit of Orvonton, Aya, who oversees Superuniverse Number Seven, Voice of the Supreme and the Voice and Attitude of The Paradise Trinity.

Your question, Rob, brought almost brought the entire universe of the Master Spirits to bear in its answer. There were translations going on, but I never heard the other languages at all.

Thanks Ron

Rob wrote: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:33 PM

Hello Ron-

Thank you for such a generous reply!

No doubt, a universe the size of our cosmic home features billions of unrevealed Paradise Sons though it is likely there are far fewer orders of such beings than beings themselves. Nevertheless, I do appreciate how coy is the construction of the Urantia Papers as if to tease us (to use one of Jerry's phrases) into greater illumination. For instance:

20:1.1a - Of the numerous orders of descending Sons, seven will be depicted (e.g. revealed) in these narratives.

In other words, while the opening statement implies many more orders are not depicted, the sentence that follows

20:1.1b - Those Sons who come forth from the Deities on the central Isle of Light and Life are called the Paradise Sons of God and embrace the following three orders........

refers categorically without any qualification to "the following three orders". Of course, it has always struck me that the two orders depicted whose genesis is a liaison between two of the three Paradise Deities logically begs the question concerning such liaisons between all possible combinations of such Deities, especially the Father-Spirit liaison as it is altogether missing from this 'depiction'.

The thought that this unnamed order that I assume to exist as one concerned exclusively (?) with outer space levels is interesting to consider. The one unrevealed order whose acquaintance I/we have made (consciously) is Cenestron, and as he described himself as "like a Melchizedek even if somewhat autonomic and commanding omniscient recall of all bibliographic references in the archives of Nebadon", made me wonder if he were not in some manner analogous to this Father-Spirit order of Paradise Sons. However, initially I took his self description to mean he belonged to the Local Universe order of Descending Sons who are unrevealed at this time.

I appreciate the recognition of the 8 unrevealed Triunities relating to post-finite domains, and while it is best to allow ourselves to be at peace in our lack of capacity to fully comprehend those 7 that are revealed given we cannot know "the ultimate level of the triunities", nevertheless would you explain your reference to the Third Triunity "that is unrevealed" as it does appear rather explicitly revealed in the list of the first seven we are invited to attempt understanding.

Gratefully,

Rob