Talk:2012-04-20-Conversations with Monjoronson 48

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Rob wrote: Monday, April 23, 2012 at 9:10 CDT

While limitations of language were referenced as precluding an expanded description of Paradise beyond the fine description currently existing, I note the following expressions that seem to embody thought that does not reach even the low human standards prevailing upon our world.

1. Quite a glorious world you live on. But for the people, it is one of Christ Michael’s pristine jewels...1

This is emblematic of misanthropy and not divine love revealed by the extension of mercy.

2. It is not evolutionary, but it is developmental in a unique way that will become an evolution of darkness into light. 2

One is led to wonder how evolution is distinguished from what is evolutionary. - especially when followed by

3. We will...create a new peaceful, evolutionary world that is actively, consciously, evolutionary and intentional.3

Given the doubly awkward use of evolutionary, it appears conceptual confusion is in evidence.

Given the fact most are familiar with the inherent limitations of the transmitting process, mentioning the above may be seen as unnecessary. Given the inclination for some though to read words attributed to divine beings as perfect, I thought it may be best to comment "for the record".

Notwithstanding this, I appreciate the service of those making this dialogue possible.--rdavis 02:11, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Value of Persons

Gerdean wrote: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 12:03 PM

I just now read this transcript and had thought to make a comment or two but was hesitant; however, seeing your comments here, Rob, emboldens me to add the thoughts that came to my mind while reading Mr. McCrae's dialogue with the Avonal Son. Initially, in this paragraph:

MONJORONSON: Yes. I am working in Orvonton and my time is principally dedicated to Nebadon, to Michael and the fulfillment of his Correcting Plan. His Correcting Plan was written by himself; it was reviewed by authorities in Uversa and approved by the Creator Son and the Infinite spirit. His plans need assistance of the greatest order. The intention of Christ Michael and of the Correcting Time is to maximize the contribution to God the Supreme, to the soul development and fulfillment of individual mortal souls and to the development of an immense cadre of eventual Finaliters, who will have experiences in ways which are most unusual and even peculiar in all the universe. He wishes not to make any abridgement or abrupt changes in the developmental progress of this area that was in rebellion, but to slowly, diligently, carefully maximize the learning quotient or product that is available to the universe. It may be agonizingly slow to you, but he is incredibly effective, patient, compassionate and forgiving. It is also incredibly empowering for a consummate leader of the best moral attributes of spiritually infused and enthused individuals in all Nebadon. He is a most remarkable Creator Son and has few peers with his courage. ... I wondered why Michael's Corecting Plan, which (according to Monjoronson's comment) which Michael wrote, and which was reviewed by Uversa authorities, why was it approved by the Creator Son and the Infinite spirit? There is no need that I can see for a Michael Son to ask himself for permission to rule his universe. He must have meant it was approved by the Eternal Son and Infinite Spirit. Not the Creator Son.

Anyway, I can appreciate that evolution takes time. There are many similarities between this "social sustainability" concept and the zooidal concepts I set forth so many years ago in my novel. Therefore, I find this theme rather interesting. But then I get thrown off course by some of the oddities that arise, such as ...

MMc: ... Can you tell me how many bestowals you have had as a babe?

MONJORONSON: As a babe? .... Let us not get into details, as I do not want to go in that direction. It has been more than one and less than one thousand. It seems to me that MMc is asking if Monjoronson ever went on a bestowal mission, and Monjoronson skirted the issue, missed the opportunity to teach something here and instead responded as if the question was: "is it bigger than a breadbasket?"

And this one:

What is Monjoronson looking forward to in physical life?

MONJORONSON: Well, I have been in thought connection with Machiventa, who lived upon your world, and I look forward to the fragrance of water - fresh, clean water -

To my knowledge, fresh clean water doesn't have any fragrance.

And when did Monjoronson have an opportunity to partake of apples and mangoes and

"Think of the wonderful juxtaposition of papaya and lime! One would not expect such a delightful peachy taste as that from that combination, would you?"

One would not expect Monjoronson to know about those flavors, since he has not yet been here to taste them.

But I was most intrigued with the idea of learning to laugh at ourselves and our working groups.

"You will soon find in the design process much humor in how your social organizations and public policies, service policies and social policies have been enacted."

Jim Cleveland, Marty Greenhut, Angus and I maintained a tight-knit co-creative design team for literally years. In 1999, 2000, 2001, even into 2002, we had a great time, were quite productive. But as war took center stage, as the adjutant/chakra dictations started coming through, as interest in Monjoronson drew our attention away from our task, and our united purpose became fractured, personalities rubbed each other the wrong way and our unit underwent tremendous upheaval. It did not survive. And yet, these many years later, I am still unable to laugh at it, or at each other. I obviously take my work and/or myself too seriously for I still find it painful when relationships are wrenched apart ... for any reason ... and when there is no avenue for recovery, no "oil of reconciliation" ... it remains to be seen how amusing it all might seem to others.

Thus I do appreciate that the social evolution we can look forward to will be without "abridgement or abrupt changes."

And this is good stuff here:

"If I may take [you] aside a moment, in the team process do not necessarily think of yourselves as a team, like building a house and living in it, but rather doing your work on the patio, without walls and ceilings, where everybody has a role to play and that by your playing the roles, then you have a team. You do not build a team and then play the roles, but vice versa. You will need individuals who are capable in those roles to help build the team. People who understand the role functions are not capable in them without bias. Yes, there may be people who accept roles and they do have biases, but those will become very evident very, very quickly as they will have an agenda for their role-playing and this will become revealed.

"You must become very transparent, authentic and genuine in your work there, and doing so, then your biases will become revealed as well and you will see that you have assumptions in those biases and that you will see them for what they are and you will learn how to behave without those unreasonable biased assumptions. The teams are an educational system. They are the process by which you learn how to design a sustainable organization. You learn how to become a much more capable individual working with others. When you throw out your opinions, your assumptions, your biases and your prejudices, then you become highly effective as an authentic participant. Then you can play your roles genuinely and most effectively."

So ... maybe some other time. In some other life.

Gerdean



Gerdean wrote: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 12:05 PM

How can a Magisterial Son go from Satania to Uversa and back, including a stop at Salvington, in only two weeks?



FC wrote: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 12:21 PM

Hi Gerdean,

I don't see why not. For one thing, I don't think we know or understand every possible way of transportation of Celestial personalities and Descending Sons of God. The fact that several are described in the Urantia Book does not necessary mean that they are all there is. Lastly, I am very sure Father can speed things up somewhat if that serves His purpose. Just a thought.

God bless,

Felix



Ron Besser wrote: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 1:24 PM

Gerdean,

AS you point out, the Creator Son need not approve his own request of the Paradise Deities for his plans. This is either a transcription error or transmitter error and easy enough to understand. I suggest the text should read (and be perfectly correct) "His Correcting Plan was written by himself; it was reviewed by authorities in Uversa and approved by the ETERNAL SON."

Michael is the Son of the Father and Eternal Son, and it is the Eternal Son who approves extra-Paradisaical claims for the rejuvenation of a planet since it involves the life patterns and the accompanying spiritual laws to be observed.

As far as Michael being able to traverse those great distances in a short period of time, recall that he has at his disposal the office of Metatron. That alone allows many things not normally achieved for all personnel (including a Creator Son who must travel quickly to confer to use space traverse that is not revealed to most of the universe) to move and be about the Father's business as quickly as possible.

Urantia continues to be under the guidance of the Most Highs. They are asking that all persons who visit Urantia leave a token of their observation on the planet with the Most Highs. In recent memory, the One Without Name and Number has asked that all who know the Urantia Book, learn to read it better, and to observe how it will be replaced shortly by a publication that Christ Michael has written for dissemination all over Urantia. The new text to be published within this year will not replace the Urantia Book. It will be about 200 pages long, and it will be a compression of the most important concepts into simplified wording as written by Michael himself.



Roxanne wrote: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:55 PM

While limitations of language were referenced as precluding an expanded description of Paradise beyond the fine description currently existing, I note the following expressions that seem to embody thought that does not reach even the low human standards prevailing upon our world.

1. Quite a glorious world you live on. But for the people, it is one of Christ Michael’s pristine jewels...[1]

This is emblematic of misanthropy and not divine love revealed by the extension of mercy.

I noticed this as well, but as I thought about it, his opinion is right on. Mankind can be loved at a spiritual level, while being seen as quite lacking, and at times even barbaric, in terms of our decisions and actions. Christ Michael would not have sent us so much celestial help if he and other Planetary Managers did not feel there was a desperate need for our up-stepping. Just think of how much more beautiful Urantia will be when mankind finally reaches the age of light and life. I am sure that there is not another world quite like ours in physical beauty, but we are truly a backward people.

2. It is not evolutionary, but it is developmental in a unique way that will become an evolution of darkness into light. [2]

One is led to wonder how evolution is distinguished from what is evolutionary. - especially when followed by

3. We will...create a new peaceful, evolutionary world that is actively, consciously, evolutionary and intentional.[3]

Given the doubly awkward use of evolutionary, it appears conceptual confusion is in evidence.

The 'intention,' I believe, is the distinction. So far, mankind has grown in an evolutionary manner, but we could accomplish so much more if we use 'intention wedded to our evolutionary growth,' and that is what the co-creative design team process is all about--making better, more spiritual decisions and acting accordingly. The usual definition of evolution does not incorporate either mind or spirit, and is therefore not 'intentional.' Our language could use more decisive terminology and at that moment, Monjoronson had to work with the language accessible in Daniel's mind, and better terminology was not immediately available.

When reading transcripts--or the UB--, instead of taking everything so literally, it is our duty and part of our experience and growth to use discernment and try to extract the meanings behind the words, as our language is woefully lacking in precision. If any of us expect the celestial teachers or The Urantia Book to be flawless at all times, then we have crystallized both, just as those who take the Bible as THE LITERAL WORD of GOD, and of course, as you say, we all are aware of the limitations of the TRing process. Monjoronson may be very close to 'perfect,' compared to us, but he, too, is still learning and gathering experience, primarily as to working with mortals and how we take his information and use it--or not. He and his team watch our reactions closely and he strives to improve his delivery to match our levels of receptivity. It is much like herding cats, as we are all unique individuals at various levels of our spiritual growth.

IMS, Roxanne

Given the fact most are familiar with the inherent limitations of the transmitting process, mentioning the above may be seen as unnecessary. Given the inclination for some though to read words attributed to divine beings as perfect, I thought it may be best to comment "for the record".

Notwithstanding this, I appreciate the service of those making this dialogue possible.



Jim Cleveland wrote: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 6:10 PM

Hi, I agree fully with Roxanne's assessment and also ....

3. We will...create a new peaceful, evolutionary world that is actively, consciously, evolutionary and intentional.[3]

Yes, exactly. A peaceful evolutionary world is one that is conscious of life evolution and intentionally active in its fruitful development. If we know that we are evolving lifeforms, we can endeavor to evolve with distinction, worthy of the Father Light. Intentional lives stem from full awareness and consciousness of evolutionary processes and how to use them.

jim



Gerdean wrote: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 6:48 PM

Thanks, Ron, for your collaboration.

Yes, Eternal Son is the only thing that could possibly make sense. In that sentence.

Alas, I cannot consider the merits of Metatron. He remains a stranger to me. Of course, I can find many references to Metatron through Google, but none of those reach my need to know regarding the Teaching Mission, which is a UB-based movement, not Biblical as Metatron seems to be. A mythological figure.

I'd like to be able to attach some credibility to these commentaries (i.e., to Uversa and back within 2-weeks) but "Metatron" does not cut it. That is like "Fairy Tale" as compared to science. Surely some one of the science minded brethren can come up with a better response that If God wants it to happen, it will happen. That is merely more mythology. Or wishful thinking. Or Space Cowboy stuff suitable for Captain Armando & the Boys.

I can fully appreciate the efforts of the Most Highs, and if they want visitors to leave a note as to their observations of life here on Urantia, that is something I would not quibble over. And I can certainly appreciate One Without Name and Number recommending we better read the UB. But this I find disconcerting:

"... observe how it [the UB] will be replaced shortly by a publication that Christ Michael has written for dissemination all over Urantia. The new text to be published within this year will not replace the Urantia Book. ..

Well, does it or does it not? Or does it incapsulate certain critical points? Or is it yet another re-writing of the epochal revelation? It seems we mortals all want to re-write the UB. Why would not the Celestials want to, also? But why Jesus? The last time Jesus wrote a book, ACIM sprang forth. Why isn't Monjoronson writing this new UB?

Too many questions. Too few answers.

Gerdean



Ron Besser wrote: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 7:58 PM

Hi Gerdean,

I was not trying to be smart by mentioning Metatron. The Metatron is a collaboration of Deity, like God the Sevenfold is, for a particular purpose. The Father has grouped the chief administrators of Urantia under the Metatron designation. Only the Father designates those individuals who will form the Metatron, and who then may be granted the use of the transcendental powers of the Father to cut the red tape when there is a serious emergency to get things done quickly. Christ Michael is the Chief of the Metatron grouping working to redeem Urantia, and there are several more individuals you know by name who share that with Michael as their chief.

Picture this to help you understand this term. When a group of men and women are designated as EMS in the United States(Emergency Management Staff as in ambulances) they cease being individual users of the highway, and are allowed to siren their way through red lights, exceed the speed limit to get to the accident, and handle other humans to save their lives in ways they would not do as private citizens. Instead of emergency workers in Nebadon being called EMS, they are called Metatron, and they may travel faster than the speed of light, and they may handle the creation very differently than if they were just administrators in Nebadon to save a planet and its population. It is much more complicated than that as to how Metatron is invoked, but if you can understand the principle outlined above you have the basic idea how Metatron works.

The problem with the word Metatron is that it has been misused and mistakenly invoked over the millennia. For instance in The Keys of Enoch, a purported revelation of the 20th century, the writer of that book claims he glimpsed the Metatron and was guided by such to reach those levels on Paradise where things could be revealed with greater efficacy. In truth, the trouble with this description is that the term Metatron refers not to one individual but to the power of the group of Deity who may invoke it with the permission of the Universal Father. Why the Metatron has been organized on Urantia and in Nebadon and in Orvonton is that there is a chain of Deity extending down from Uversa to Urantia to clean out the damage Lucifer and Caligastia created. It has left our planet devastated and the rot has to be removed through the extraordinary means and to be dissipated before it does any more damage. Normal evolution takes too long to clean it out completely. The Father removed the worst offending problems by fiat and the Melchizedeks under Michael are working very hard to repair what is left.

I doubt you will hear of the term very often because it is confusing to everyone below the level of angel to understand how it works. But in the transcript you questioned, if you understood that the Father has made it possible for time constraints to be lifted through the invocation of Metatron, then some of the mystery may be lifted. The chief of Metatron activities in Nebadon is Michael by appointment and acclamation. Is it unusual then to see Michael being able to move great distances in almost no time? No, it would not be unusual at all. It would not be unusual to understand if we recognized the power of and the invocation of the Metatron processes.

The Michael Book:

What Christ Michael wishes to do is provide a simplified book of Urantia concepts for the masses. It does not replace the current Urantia text, but it will be offered in place of the large volume for those who can not comprehend the older text.

Christ Michael has transmitted some directions by telling those who were concerned about receiving such a large- sized volume as the old book was, that what he had in mind would be in the 200 page range with his choice of language. He prefaced the discussion by allowing that all who knew the Teaching Mission people would find it difficult to understand why it was not offered to be transmitted by them. In fact, the 200 pager will be transmitted by the new process which has not been revealed to the Teaching Mission transmitters just yet and it will take too much time for the old transmitters to feel comfortable with the new process. The 200 page volume is a simplified version of the old 2,000 page volume which will be referenced throughout the 200 page book.

Meanwhile, the second volume of the large Urantia Book II (probably in excess of 2,000 pages) will be brought to Urantia when Monjoronson incarnates. He will have the completed text with him. The term Metatron, I hear, is defined in it, because it has been invoked in the adjudication of the Lucifer rebellion on Urantia, and it will be described.

I hope this corrects any misquoting I did in the first message describing the project.

Thanks Ron



Gerdean wrote: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:57 PM

Oh, you more than amply corrected your misquoting, Ron, thereby giving yourself a great springboard by which to further amplify the Agenda proposed by those that you propose are far and away superior to the faith Children of God such as myself. I am once more dumbfounded by the agility with which some imaginative mortals whisk us away on wings of eagles ... and call it seraphic action. Alas.



Rob wrote: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:02 PM

Hello Roxanne-

Thank you for sharing!

No one should ever be discouraged from giving their best efforts at transmitting, and certainly, it is impossible to do so if technical 'perfection' of expression is felt to be more important than the truth shared which is sensed at deeper levels than symbolic exchanges can presume to convey. Nevertheless, everyone, but especially tr's, do well to maintain a "conscious unconcern about the entire procedure" [1] in order to remain sober in the face of deeper levels of "spiritual reciprocation" [2] growing more profound each day.

From a public relations standpoint, we will have our work cut out for us as it is with repeated references to the need for reduction of population along with Urantia text language citing superior and inferior peoples, but when joined with statements that are difficult not to read as misanthropic, we invite more trouble than needed.

As ever, when we speak in written forms that are now automatically circulated around the world, all of us need to think very carefully not just about what we say, but more importantly, how we speak. In this regard, we cannot afford to speak in anything but the language of love with the kind of skill cited in the lesson as a much needed tool to actually apply love to our respective service tasks.

Tell Daniel, I trust he was able to laugh a bit over the idea of a "Prince of Mercy' appearing as a misanthrope. Having felt his mercy, I know his words can be nothing but gracious.

Gratefully,

Rob



Michael McCray wrote: Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 12:27 AM

Rob you originally said:

1. Quite a glorious world you live on. But for the people, it is one of Christ Michael’s pristine jewels...[1]

This is emblematic of misanthropy and not divine love revealed by the extension of mercy.

mis·an·thro·py

noun

hatred, dislike, or distrust of humankind.

Misanthropy is too strong a word here. I love my son Sean but I can recognize that often he is his own worst enemy. It would be an injustice to both Sean and myself to label that truth as my hatred for him or somehow not exemplary of the love I hold for him.

There is no hatred, dislike or distrust of humankind being expressed here. The truth is this is a beautiful planet, Michael's jewel except for the people who are not jewels by any means at this point. They/we might be considered diamonds in the rough. This would be consistent with previous transcripts and the UB...


IMS Michael



Steffani Murray wrote: Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 11:34 AM

Sugar coated 'nicey-nice' statements are not necessarily sincere and/or genuine expressions of love....and it's a fact that many humans on Urantia are illiterate and undereducated...which isn't to say that these folks haven't mastered the concepts of kindness, compassion, and sharing within their families and neighborhoods sufficiently to incorporate them into their daily living practices. 171:7.7

Whereas others, who are well-educated and extraordinarily tech saavy, are as yet veritable savages parlaying those 'barbarous arbitrament[s] of war" upon their mortal fellows, often sight unseen dismissed as "collateral damage" necessary to impose their own ideological and/or religious systems/beliefs. 52:6.6

Spiritually unregenerated mortals are as they are...and I for one truly appreciate how both the Urantia Book and how our celestial Mentors "tell it like it is"...

The living Spirit Beings are usually far more tactful today than is the textbook they transmitted through tthe subject' in 1934/35, that perhaps translated awkwardly into "the English language of Urantia"...but both are supremely truthful about the present status of the human(s)...kind and unkind.

They each and all sincerely desire their ministry to be received, and their messages given for our benefit to be accepted. The mind, heart, and actual intentions of any individual mortal are as easily discerned by any Paradise Son as by our heavenly Father!

Anyone utilizing their name(s) as authorization to promote any agenda of their own besides realizing Father's will and way would do well to keep this fact in mind. 154:.6

Urantia mortals in general are at present barely beginning to evolve into a civilization that may one day become willing follow the Master's rules for social interactions, especially the "golden rule"...as the peoples on any normal planet in the "post bestowal Son era" would do as a matter of course! 160:1.14

The time has come TODAY! 130:6.4

Please say "yes" unequivocally if you haven't already. You know who you are...and so does HE!



Rob wrote: Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:17 PM

Hello Michael-

I appreciate your understanding of intent in the phrase with which I can concur. Notwithstanding this interpretation, when anyone says the world is great but for its people, they reveal a mind alienated from its Source. This is observed in those who value predictable mechanisms more than the 'noncomputable' value of personality. (1) In fact, "persons", even as we are in this and every moment, are of immeasurable value because each is an infinitesimal facet of the Infinite personality.

Gratefully,

Rob--rdavis 20:40, 25 April 2012 (UTC)



Michael McCray wrote: Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 4:51 PM

Hi Rob:

I can hardly agree with your generality of: when anyone says the world is great but for its people, they reveal a mind alienated from its Source. Considering in the original dialogue the anyone speaking, through a TR admittedly, is a Paradise Son whose mind I believe is a gift of the Infinite Spirit.

al·ien·ate

  verb (used with object), al·ien·at·ed, al·ien·at·ing.

1.

to make indifferent or hostile: He has alienated his entire family.

2.

to turn away; transfer or divert: to alienate funds from their intended purpose.

3.

Law . to transfer or convey, as title, property, or other right, to another: to alienate lands.


For that mind to be alienated from its Source, the Paradise Son would have to be engaged in some thought or act counter the will of the Father, The Eternal Son or Infinite Spirit.

Since I observe no thought or act of willful disobedience or error on the part of this Paradise Son, I must reject your generality as not applying in the case we are discussing.

Is there perhaps something that I am not aware of? Or perhaps I have misinterpreted your meaning?

IMS Michael



Rob wrote: Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 5:53 PM

Hello Michael-

Thank you for inviting further examination of this thought!

You underscore the value of conscious unconcern with the process of transmitting when concerned with the presumed authority of one making a statement. Any statement must stand on its own merits without reliance upon extrinsic authority.

Of course there is no possibility of malice in perfect beings, but when such beings rely upon the most imperfect of all beings, e.g. human beings, to relay their thought, problems will arise by virtue of translation regardless of the integrity of humans involved.

You should be confident that I appreciate the intent that precedes the expression, but simply note issues with its emergent form.

Gratefully,

Rob

A Simple Comma?

Vicki Vanderheyden wrote: Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 2:05 PM

Dear Friends,

" Quite a glorious world you live on. But for the people, it is one of Christ Michael’s pristine jewels..."

I received this message from Monjoronson in response to the inquiry and meaning of the above statement and he asked me to share.

Monjoronson: "As in all transmissions, a simple omission can change the meaning. I ask that you place a comma after the word "But" and read this again."

Sincerely, Vicki



Rob wrote: Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 2:41 PM

Hello Vicki-

Thank you for sharing in this discussion!

This may be the first instance where teachers were cited by an alternate tr prescribing the location of punctuation marks. Regardless, in this instance the suggestion is an awkward grammatical contortion in recognition of the error.

For my part, I will let the record stand as it was presented but include your suggestion in the discussion of the lesson.

Gratefully,

Rob