Talk:2012-08-16-I Am the Lamb of God

Rob wrote: On 8/16/2012 9:01 PM

Thanks for sharing Ron! It is quite interesting to witness this expression of affinity between an Avonal Son and the Original Michael, the presiding head of the primary Paradise Sons. Apparently, e.g. judging from lack of mention in the Urantia text and elsewhere, there is no "original Avonal", hence the identification of at least the incarnating orders of Paradise sonship with the Original Michael.

In this vein, I have often wondered why we have orders of Paradise sonship that originate in the union of :

1. Michaels - Father-Son origin 2. Avonals - Son-Spirit origin 3. Daynals - Trinity origin

but no order derived from the union of Father-Spirit associated with the fourth triunity. I would welcome the thoughts of yours and any others on this point.

Ron wrote: Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:57 PM

Hi Rob,

I have heard enough from the Deity Voices that there are billions of unrevealed Sons of God including those who are derived from the Father and the Spirit. There is no inkling that there are Sons of God trinitized by the individual Deities. The Eternal Son, by himself, creates super-personal Sons and they are not revealed to us as they have no connection to our ascension career. The Father trinitizes Sons of God in conjunction with his coordinates on Paradise and has no revealed Sons strictly created by the Father. He can and does personalize his Fragments and they remind me very much like SONS of God but they are not so classified. Now the Infinite Spirit is a very special case because he has some most unusual roles to fulfill. While we have no report of Sons personalized only by the Infinite Spirit, I am not so sure he refrains from creating Sons of the Infinite Spirit in his dual role as the Conjoint Actor! I know, I am guessing, but think about it: The Father and the Son have empowered the Infinite Spirit to act JOINTLY for them and we know that the Infinite Spirit can and does create magnificent beings in perfect Havona that surely must qualify as Sons of God that descend!

This I think is worth looking at too:

The Son-Spirit union is the architect of the Time-Space creation. It is they who created the patterns for the seven superuniverses and within whom we find destiny. We do not find our ascension destiny in the Father-Spirit union which is the architect for the patterns of the outer space region.

Notice we have no descending Son taking origin in the Father-Spirit union in the seven superuniverses! I think part of the answer lies in the fact that the Father-Spirit union will likely portray itself through Sons it creates for service with the undisclosed regents of the four outer space regions.

Notice that our space area of the seven superuniverses is serviced by the Ancients of Days as Trinity Sons empowered to use their offices for the design disclosures of the heart of matter which is the ultimaton. In the outer space areas, the unrevealed regents will disclose no more than the Ancients of Days regarding the ultimaton, but there will be non-linear energy manifestations that the Father-Spirit can only address. Thus we see, I believe, how the Fourth Triunity (I am accepting your statement this is where the Father-Spirit union is manifested since I have not looked it up) becomes vital for the growth of regions beyond the seven superuniverses.

I find it satisfying even though I do not comprehend how the Avonal Son compliments his parentage in the very creative union which designed time-space and its cohering destiny in the Universal Father.

Somehow Monjoronson is that very essence of the same pattern that gave expressions to this universe. It is the Creator Sons who electrify the patterns, juice them up and make them live, while the Monjoronson's give expression to the Father's desire for peace and harmony within them. The first Triodity is the Paradise Control of our world and universe since it embodies the Son and the Spirit as the Conjoint Actor and the absolute pattern of matter as our world in Paradise. These expressions are absolute, but are attenuated by the Avonal Sons through the Creator Son creations. The first Triodity integrates all God learns from the creative intentions of the Son-Spirit union.

But you can not disregard two other very important things:

1) The Father husbands the Eternal Son's mandate to live life to the fullest without bringing harm to others;

2) The Father embraces all features of creativity, and as such, is in every decision and in every action, on behalf of all creations whether that is Havona or the fourth outer space level.

The Supreme is beholden to the Father, yet acts independently of the mind gravity control of the Master Spirits! The Supreme compliments the Father by bringing to life that which can not be sustained without the Father in all things. In this revelation, the Father upholds all acts of the Supreme providing they are also complimentary to the Creator Sons.

This is precisely why the first Triodity has as its acting agent the Conjoint Actor. It is the Conjoint Actor who speaks for both the Father and the Son without initiating the precepts of infinity even while this Triodity is absolute in intention, it acts for the Supreme on Paradise by extension. No things are better done anywhere than in the first Triodity insofar as the time-space regions are concerned since it is this Triodity that blends and makes time-space cohere in the infinite acts of the Trinity. The Trinity partakes of the outer space levels as one unit to determine purpose and then relaxes its cohesiveness in order to allow development. In the outer space regions, God becomes Ultimate while the Trinity remains Absolute experientially and infinitely existential. This explains the duality of the First Triodity as an act of the will of God to simultaneously be One while differentiating into the many. Without the First Triodity the Fourth Triunity becomes an orphan, and while there are seven (7) Triunities revealed, the additional eight (8) are without parentage at this stage of universe development. Only in the Second Triodity do the eight unrevealed Triunities exist and are even now given space to develop.

The Fourth Triunity is experientially difficult to perceive since it deals with the Unqualified Absolute. But if we remember that the Unqualified Absolute is neither infinite or existential, but an extension of Paradise in fact, then we can make the judgement that all things material cohere in the Master Spirit who speaks for the Father-Son union to time-space, and that Master Spirit Number Five who speaks on Paradise in the presence of the Infinite Spirit to answer all concerns regarding the question of Ultimacy where it goes and how it runs the universes beyond the space boundaries of the seven superuniverses.

Master Spirit Number Five, Mantrinaya, has a relationship to the Fourth Triunity. This relationship can be compared to the work of the Trinity by its various levels of reality comprehension in noting that Mantrinaya speaks for God the Ultimate to the Triunity involved, while he also has the knowledge of the superuniverse liaison between the Supreme and the Ultimate. It is in this relationship that determines how the Fourth Triunity becomes involved with Supremacy as well as Ultimacy and, figuartively speaking, with the yet undetermined presence-whereabouts of the Consummator of Universe Destiny.

Master Spirit Number Six, Luminaya, speaks for the Son-Spirit union and has a relationship to the Third Triunity that is unrevealed, but think about it for a moment. Son-Spirit patterns dominate our area of space. Luminaya must have some part to play in the extension of space into our area where the superuniverses took shape. The Third Triunity, while subordinate to the Paradise Trinity, is nonetheless applicable to the unity to the Paradise Trinity without being a unanimity. Therefore, the patterns of the Father-Son are resident, as well as the ascension-destiny proscriptions in this Third Triunity, and Luminaya speaks effectively about how Father-son patterns cohere in the ascension destinies. Much of the work of the third Triunity is preparing the Master Universe for self-extension even beyond the fourth outer space levels!

One last word before we go:

The Triunities do not exist isolated from each other. They exist as a community on Paradise. Their projections are to be found and are located near the sixth sector of the seven levels of Havona and are extensions of Paradise quite near the twenty-one Paradise Secret Spheres. We have been talking about the Fourth Triunity and some about the Third Triunity, but we have not identified the source of thought that brings them into effective liaison on Paradise. That liaison power is none other than the Paradise Father who brings all Triunities, present and future, into a balance before [i.e. presented to] the Master Spirits so that they may hear the deliberations of the Deities insofar as it correlates to their work in time-space and even out into the four outer space levels.

This dissertation is courtesy of Siraya, Master Spirit Number One, the Voice of the Father with the help of Siraya's consorts, Master Spirit Number Two (Kuwaya - Voice of The Eternal Son)). Master Spirit Number Four (Ociliaya, Voice of the Father-Son), Master Spirit Number Five (Mantrinaya - Voice of the Father-Spirit creativity, and of God the Ultimate) and the rest is through the work of the Master Spirit of Orvonton, Aya, who oversees Superuniverse Number Seven, Voice of the Supreme and the Voice and Attitude of The Paradise Trinity.

Your question, Rob, brought almost brought the entire universe of the Master Spirits to bear in its answer. There were translations going on, but I never heard the other languages at all.

Thanks Ron

Rob wrote: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:33 PM

Hello Ron-

Thank you for such a generous reply!

No doubt, a universe the size of our cosmic home features billions of unrevealed Paradise Sons though it is likely there are far fewer orders of such beings than beings themselves. Nevertheless, I do appreciate how coy is the construction of the Urantia Papers as if to tease us (to use one of Jerry's phrases) into greater illumination. For instance:

20:1.1a - Of the numerous orders of descending Sons, seven will be depicted (e.g. revealed) in these narratives.

In other words, while the opening statement implies many more orders are not depicted, the sentence that follows

20:1.1b - Those Sons who come forth from the Deities on the central Isle of Light and Life are called the Paradise Sons of God and embrace the following three orders........

refers categorically without any qualification to "the following three orders". Of course, it has always struck me that the two orders depicted whose genesis is a liaison between two of the three Paradise Deities logically begs the question concerning such liaisons between all possible combinations of such Deities, especially the Father-Spirit liaison as it is altogether missing from this 'depiction'.

The thought that this unnamed order that I assume to exist as one concerned exclusively (?) with outer space levels is interesting to consider. The one unrevealed order whose acquaintance I/we have made (consciously) is Cenestron, and as he described himself as "like a Melchizedek even if somewhat autonomic and commanding omniscient recall of all bibliographic references in the archives of Nebadon", made me wonder if he were not in some manner analogous to this Father-Spirit order of Paradise Sons. However, initially I took his self description to mean he belonged to the Local Universe order of Descending Sons who are unrevealed at this time.

I appreciate the recognition of the 8 unrevealed Triunities relating to post-finite domains, and while it is best to allow ourselves to be at peace in our lack of capacity to fully comprehend those 7 that are revealed given we cannot know "the ultimate level of the triunities", nevertheless would you explain your reference to the Third Triunity "that is unrevealed" as it does appear rather explicitly revealed in the list of the first seven we are invited to attempt understanding.

Gratefully,

Rob

Ron wrote: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 6:57 PM

Rob:

You write:

I appreciate the recognition of the 8 unrevealed Triunities relating to post-finite domains, and while it is best to allow ourselves to be at peace in our lack of capacity to fully comprehend those 7 that are revealed given we cannot know "the ultimate level of the triunities", nevertheless would you explain your reference to the Third Triunity "that is unrevealed" as it does appear rather explicitly revealed in the list of the first seven we are invited to attempt understanding.

Ron: I was not referring to the Third Triunity when I spoke about something being unrevealed. I was talking about the relationship that Luminaya has to the Third Triunity. You see, the Master Spirits have a front row seat to the doings of the Paradise Deities. They have a channel they can tune into to listen to (or maybe even see?) the deliberations the Triunities hold concerning the operation of the Master Universe. This is not unlike televising the deliberations of the Senate that Americans can listen to to follow the arguments that develop how certain actions or codes are to be distributed as laws of the land.

Luminaya is the Voice of the Son-Spirit Deity union. As such Luminaya apparently holds the key to the application of Son-Spirit policy as it pertains to the four outer space areas regarding the spirit promulgations that are to take effect in those areas beyond the superuniverses. They speak of this openly to me, but they are quiet about what form or forms spirit takes in the outer space regions. This is what I was trying to explain in the last post: Luminaya has this unrevealed feature or contact with the Third Triunity regarding spirit form of divinities (e.g. the proposed existence of descending Sons of the Son-Spirit union.)

Both the Third Triunity and the Fourth Triunity potentially contain the open door to figuring out how God the Ultimate will approach the next universe age. Luminaya already knows God the Ultimate and may speak for Him in the high counsels on Paradise. To time-space these are personality decisions that represent future ages and are off limits to our understanding to prevent development of thought which casts almost no preference for the right decisions, and only for the facts about decision being made. You rightly may ask, "What am I talking about?". We have at our command language, but we do not have at our command thought which precedes language, and God the Ultimate thinks in terms of pre-language expressions which contain no verb!

I hope you bear with me on this because it really starts to explain what the Urantia Book refers to in describing God the Ultimate as eventuating perfection of concepts. In time space, we act (verb) to bring about an event or a completion of task. God the Ultimate, represents the abilities of having no time in space concepts. God the Ultimate can take the arrangement of past verb actions of time (historical development) in a thought, is able to remove al the experiments of how those verbs brought a conclusion in time, and then reproduces time conclusions better than what time could by leaving the action (verb) out. This process produces perfection before it can be qualified by the activity of time limitations yet remain experiential.

Perhaps you can get a glimmer of what is being spoken to here although I find myself so hampered by time language it is very hard to get at what they are trying to tell us.

Nonetheless, both the Third and Fourth Triunities have the potential to exercise Ultimacy as they are, and they do so in the Master Universe (not Paradise) through liaison with the Master Spirit actions through time-space to the residence of God the Ultimate. Please note the evidence of this statement by observing the make up of these Triunities (3 and 4) which are The Deity Absolute and the Unqualified Absolute respectively as members of the debating committee, and these are the repositories of the potentials I am speaking of.

If one can penetrate this thinking, then one might also penetrate why the absonite precedes time and then follows the finalization of Supreme values of time as in the outer space areas beyond the seven superuniverses of time. If I may, let me summarize this appearance of the absonite, followed by time, followed by Ultimacy cycle as "Perfection by fiat (Trinity = Havona), Perfection-Action experientialized (Father-Son = the Seven Superuniverses), Perfection-Thought experientialized. (Son-Spirit = the four outer space levels)"

Do not make the mistake which is so easy to do to think that the four outer space areas are analogous to a homogeneous development of Ultimacy. By that I mean, do not think each one of the four levels revealed to us are a convenient way to break down a vast area into manageable bites for administrative purposes. They are not the same just as the 7 superuniverses are not the same in development. I have no idea what the quartan development of Ultimacy may include, but it does have quartan universes as opposed to galactic universes in the seven superuniverses. Part of this difference is the manifestation of energy there. These developments are addressed in the unrevealed Triunities, and the Master Spirits are controlling influences over all 15 Triunities revealed and unrevealed.

Ociliaya, Mantrinaya, and Luminaya have a great deal to do with developments that remain as future revelations to us,and even among the Triunities which operate directly with the current universe age (the seven revealed in the text), there is enough integration of potentials in time to call for secrecy of relationships among the Master Spirit activities regarding Triunities of Supreme completion.

Ron

Rob wrote: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 8:40 PM

Thank you Ron!

Of course, I see now what your meaning was all along in reference to the Third Triunity. In other words, you are saying that the Master Spirit Luminaya has a relationship to this Triunity that is unrevealed and related to the topic of unrevealed orders of Descending Sons given the Son-Spirit component in relation to the Deity Absolute. I appreciate your drawing attention to the relationships each of the Master Spirits has to these Triunities, each one uniquely germane to the specific function of one of the Master Spirits. This deserves further consideration.

As we reach beyond the finite, we encounter the inherent limits of our mortal minds. However, I am encouraged that though we must think in a mortal universe frame, this does not preclude us from considering higher frames within which thought can occur. In this regard, I am most appreciative of your reference to that thought inherent in Ultimacy that is necessarily pre-linguistic and perhaps post-experiential though the latter may be reserved to the hypothetical integration of the Master Universe.

Toward this end, I will gladly bear with you confident that the apparent paradox of the absonite preceding and succeeding the finite points us to the fact that the seed of our being, mortal though it be, existed prior to our conscious discovery of such and holds in this moment on super-conscious levels the truth potential of our seventh-stage realization of destiny, glimpses of which we may catch though these will necessarily escape the grasp of the crude symbols we utilize for commonplace expression.

Gratefully,

Rob