Talk:2012-08-06-Forerunners
Rob wrote on tml: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:22 PM
Dear Friends,
The following short lesson was received the last day of the Summer Study Session where a panel discussion on the Teaching Mission was featured with Marty Risacher, Donna D'Ingillo, and Byron Belitsos on panel. Those attending this impromptu personal meeting were Dave and Mer Tenney, Byron Belitsos, and myself who "ran into each other" near the end of the conference and felt it necessary to allow ourselves time to regroup after absorbing a sense of rejection at this gathering.
Gratefully,
Rob
Gerdean wrote on tml: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 7:18 PM
Thanks for letting us know, Rob, that there was a sense of rejection, so that we in the field might know what to expect from this Summer Study Session. Some indication of this was set forth on one of Facebook's Urantia groups' discussions about the popularly received presentation about the far-distant-future projected time of the adjudication of the Lucifer Rebellion, which inclined to make the TeaM's prognosis that it had already taken place look ridiculous. So we are ridiculed again. Nothing new, of course, but still ... what a shame.
Rob wrote on tml: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 8:22 PM
You're welcome Gerdean! The sense of rejection was not evident during the panel discussion which actually went very well with many attending with great interest. It was afterwards that the 'rejection' began to manifest.
The presentation "about the far distant future projected time of the adjudication" was authored by Chuck Thurston whose workshop on the topic accompanied Byron being asked to leave. As I was not at this workshop, I asked Chuck the next day to share his notes. What resulted was the following dialogue that you may find of interest.
Dialogue with Chuck Thurston
1. Rob wrote: August 14, 2012 10:53:05 PM CDT
Hello Chuck-
Thank you for your willingness to examine this topic with careful attention to the Urantia text!
Two things came to mind while reading the slides from your presentation, 1) C.S. Lewis' writing which cited nothing more advantageous to a rebel spirit than persons believing "the devil" didn't exist, and 2) the apostles debating with one another over whether Jesus' had actually risen from the dead.. Obviously, it behooves us to avoid making dogmatic claims concerning spiritual realities, but we are continually encouraged to share respective understandings in a 'spirit' of honest and open inquiry. I sense your efforts are motivated by this higher purpose.
One of the points I am glad you make vivid in your notes is the difference between adjudication as it would operate on different levels of the universe e.g. the system level, the planetary government level, and of course the terrestrial human level. Using the Urantia text as the sole authority in this discussion would certainly make it impossible to assert any claims of 'the' adjudication having occurred in 1985. However, textual references to the process having begun at the time when the Urantia text was being written ca. 1934 and multiple uses of looking toward to 'final' adjudication at some point in the future, it would seem its possibility would need to be allowed. Beyond this, additional information would be required.
This brings us to the issue of authenticating such 'information' that when supplementing or subverting existing frames of reference is as problematic as in any science groping toward better understanding. Of course, the benefit of science is that notwithstanding the inertia of its own slowly evolving consensus of what is real, certain qualified individuals are afforded opportunity to make alternative propositions when supported by experimental evidence. In the case of what the Urantia text calls religionists, there exists no systematic method for authenticating non-conforming claims. In the best of cases, there may exist a willingness to simply listen to the experiential evidence of others. Of course, in less ideal contexts silence and secrecy is observed, a practice I remember well where and when reading the Urantia text was verboten.
I would like to think that persons benefitting from exposure to the Urantia revelation might be secure enough in their faith to welcome any sincere individuals to share their own spiritual experience however deviant it may appear if for no other reason than to spiritualize their own personality by getting to know yet another child of God. Alas, the phenomenon of religion as practiced in isolated worlds does not easily afford such latitude of expression. This is certainly not unique to Urantia Book circles where such limits are observed as well in all its subcultures i.e. Teaching Mission, Magisterial Mission as it is in general throughout the world though exceptions are to be found everywhere. It is in these openings where expanded illumination may be found. Could such an exception could be found in this exchange? Even if the odds are against it, surely there is never a better moment than the present for new beginnings.
Gratefully,
Rob
2. On Aug 15, 2012, at 1:52 AM, ct wrote: (note: as Chuck inserted his comments after my own, I will add italics here to his to differentiate)
Hi Rob,
Thank you for your willingness to examine this topic with careful attention to the Urantia text!
Thanks!
Two things came to mind while reading the slides from your presentation, 1) C.S. Lewis' writing which cited nothing more advantageous to a rebel spirit than persons believing "the devil" didn't exist, and 2) the apostles debating with one another over whether Jesus' had actually risen from the dead.. Obviously, it behooves us to avoid making dogmatic claims concerning spiritual realities, but we are continually encouraged to share respective understandings in a 'spirit' of honest and open inquiry. I sense your efforts are motivated by this higher purpose.
I hope so.
One of the points I am glad you make vivid in your notes is the difference between adjudication as it would operate on different levels of the universe e.g. the system level, the planetary government level, and of course the terrestrial human level. Using the Urantia text as the sole authority in this discussion would certainly make it impossible to assert any claims of 'the' adjudication having occurred in 1985. However, textual references to the process having begun at the time when the Urantia text was being written ca. 1934 and multiple uses of looking toward to 'final' adjudication at some point in the future, it would seem its possibility would need to be allowed.
That depends on what you mean. If we take the UB seriously, I think it's very clear that any near-term possibility has to be ruled out because the required conditions for adjudication have not yet been met -- and are not likely to be, any time soon. Adjudication is not at the whim of our universe administrators. They can't just suddenly "decide" that NOW is the time, like a lightening bolt out of the sky. Adjudication cannot occur until the required conditions are met, and once those conditions exist, it cannot be stopped.
Beyond this, additional information would be required.
This brings us to the issue of authenticating such 'information' that when supplementing or subverting existing frames of reference is as problematic as in any science groping toward better understanding. Of course, the benefit of science is that notwithstanding the inertia of its own slowly evolving consensus of what is real, certain qualified individuals are afforded opportunity to make alternative propositions when supported by experimental evidence. In the case of what the Urantia text calls religionists, there exists no systematic method for authenticating non-conforming claims. In the best of cases, there may exist a willingness to simply listen to the experiential evidence of others. Of course, in less ideal contexts silence and secrecy is observed, a practice I remember well where and when reading the Urantia text was verboten.
The Urantia Book gives us an expansive conceptual framework and a dynamic set of principles that can help us to discover, understand and create universe realities on all levels that we can touch. It's like a great flashlight, but we have to initiate the exploration, which will inevitably take us into uncharted territory. The realities that we discover will only make sense if they can be correlated within a coherent universe concept frame that we trust and have confidence in. This is what the UB provides, which is why I am loathe to dismiss it, or to allow it to be overruled by contradictory assertions from other sources.
It's not hard to feel why the TM phenomenon has captured the interest of many people. There's something going on with it that seems fascinating and full of promise, but our understanding of it has to be made to conform with the Urantia Book somehow, or the contradictions and deviations will only continue to increase. Sticking with the TM as it is currently understood can only lead to an eventual abandonment of the authority of the UB, even if little by little. That's ok, of course, for anyone who wants to take that path. It's up to each person to decide, but, speaking for myself, I am not willing to accept such a loss.
I would like to think that persons benefitting from exposure to the Urantia revelation might be secure enough in their faith to welcome any sincere individuals to share their own spiritual experience however deviant it may appear if for no other reason than to spiritualize their own personality by getting to know yet another child of God. Alas, the phenomenon of religion as practiced in isolated worlds does not easily afford such latitude of expression. This is certainly not unique to Urantia Book circles where such limits are observed as well in all its subcultures i.e. Teaching Mission, Magisterial Mission as it is in general throughout the world though exceptions are to be found everywhere. It is in these openings where expanded illumination may be found. Could such an exception could be found in this exchange? Even if the odds are against it, surely there is never a better moment than the present for new beginnings.
As Jesus says: "...behold, all things are becoming new.”
Thanks for keeping up the dialog!
Chuck
3. Rob wrote: August 15, 2012 1:14:25 PM CDT
Greetings Chuck!
I would concur with your analysis of the time frames for adjudication as outlined in the Urantia text with the exception that I would not allow any single episode of disclosure to serve as an absolute algorithm governing future disclosures of Deity. Much in the way statistical probabilities are easily calculated and relied upon in good faith when applied to larger pools of data, such models deliver diminishing returns of reliability as the focus moves from aggregates to individuals. Additionally, in the case of this planet, while general principles are in effect, exceptions are observed on all terminal bestowal worlds of the Supreme Sovereigns of Local Universes. Suffice it to say Urantia is a wild card, and while our comfort zones are coddled by reliable patterns, the role of unique worlds in the larger spiritual economy must be recognized.
Happily, I also concur with your recognition of the adverse impact upon the role of authority in the evolution of religion away from the regimes of theology toward the primacy of personal experience growing proportionate to the individual's quest for final value. Obviously, this trend bodes ill for exclusive reliance upon any single incident of what is known as revelation, but it appears the time has arrived on Urantia when this is advisable. For this reason, I observe the social movements described by the terms Urantia, Teaching Mission, and Magisterial Mission to mention only a few, as strictly evolutionary repercussions of spiritual initiatives whose scope and number forever exceeds human comprehension.
Gratefully,
Rob
4. On Aug 15, 2012, at 3:17 PM, ct wrote:
I would concur with your analysis of the time frames for adjudication as outlined in the Urantia text with the exception that I would not allow any single episode of disclosure
by "single episode of disclosure," are you referring to the Urantia Book?
to serve as an absolute algorithm governing future disclosures of Deity.
Maybe, but it all becomes meaningless if we believe that carefully articulated divine principles will be arbitrarily violated.
Much in the way statistical probabilities are easily calculated and relied upon in good faith when applied to larger pools of data, such models deliver diminishing returns of reliability as the focus moves from aggregates to individuals. Additionally, in the case of this planet, while general principles are in effect, exceptions are observed on all terminal bestowal worlds of the Supreme Sovereigns of Local Universes. Suffice it to say Urantia is a wild card, and while our comfort zones are coddled by reliable patterns, the role of unique worlds in the larger spiritual economy must be recognized.
Perhaps, but the potential uniqueness of this world will never violate universal principles, like the sanctity of human free will. The Ancients of Days could instantly vaporize all humans who are sympathetic to the rebellion if they wanted to, but they won't do that because it would rob those individuals of the opportunity to change their minds. In accordance with the Father's love, every human is given the opportunity to make a final decision regarding his or her own survival. So the rebellion will continue until all present and future mortals have freely chosen to reject it. Wild card status will never nullify the Father's love for his children or his respect for their free will.
Happily, I also concur with your recognition of the adverse impact upon the role of authority in the evolution of religion away from the regimes of theology toward the primacy of personal experience growing proportionate to the individual's quest for final value.
Meaning what, exactly, in relation to the authority of the Urantia Book? The authority of the Urantia Book cannot be compared to the presumed authority and theological dogma of evolutionary institutional religions. It comes from a higher level and is in a completely different league.
Obviously, this trend bodes ill for exclusive reliance upon any single incident of what is known as revelation,
By "any single incident" are you again referring to the Urantia Book? Do you see it as merely one incident among many?
but it appears the time has arrived on Urantia when this is advisable.
Are you saying that it is, or isn't, advisable to rely upon the Urantia Book?
For this reason, I observe the social movements described by the terms Urantia, Teaching Mission, and Magisterial Mission to mention only a few,
Are there other social movements of significance associated with the Urantia Book?
as strictly evolutionary repercussions of spiritual initiatives
evolutionary response to epochal revelation is a special category
whose scope and number forever exceeds human comprehension.
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. Can you clarify your point?
Thanks,
Chuck
5. Rob wrote: August 15, 2012 4:28:26 PM CDT
Hello Chuck-
As you have inquired and commented specifically on a number of points, I will address these in the order they have been offered. Afterwards, I will conclude with a general comment and invite further examination of this topic.
1. By "single episode of disclosure," are you referring to the Urantia Book?
Yes, among other such epochal/temporal disclosures where each builds upon all that precede it.
2. It all becomes meaningless if we believe that carefully articulated divine principles will be arbitrarily violated.
The Paradise Trinity is the guarantee against arbitrariness notwithstanding sometimes the expression of a higher law appears as the reversal of a lower law. It helps to remember the human mind always knows less than it can believe.
3. Meaning what, exactly, in relation to the authority of the Urantia Book?
No revelation short of the attainment of the Universal Father can ever be complete. All other celestial ministrations are no more than partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space. While such admissions as this may possibly detract from the immediate force and authority of all revelations, the time has arrived on Urantia when it is advisable to make such frank statements, even at the risk of weakening the future influence and authority of this, the most recent of the revelations of truth to the mortal races of Urantia.
4. Do you see it (the Urantia Book) as merely one incident among many?
Yes, among other such epochal/temporal disclosures where each builds upon all that precede it.
5. Are you saying that it is, or isn't, advisable to rely upon the Urantia Book?
It is best to rely upon all sources of insight into the will of God, first among these is his presence within, but this is greatly augmented by embracing all of his gifts that we find unfolding around us such as the Urantia Book e.g. "Embrace the truth wherever it is found, whatever the cost, and follow it wherever it leads."
6. Are there other social movements of significance associated with the Urantia Book?
Honestly, it is difficult to qualify the Teaching Mission and Magisterial Mission as 'social' movements as these are so fragmented, but there exist numerous bona fide social organizations inspired by the Urantia Book. Of course, it is possible to see by faith the 'movement' of Michael's Spirit of Truth operating in and through all social actions.
7. Can you clarify your point? (re: evolutionary repercussions to epochal revelation)
What I refer to are the social and cultural repercussions of this most recent epochal revelation. While they may be inspired by the same authoritative document, they all lack its authority. It is helpful to distinguish between divine light and subsequent human representations of such light.
I hope this helps to clarify previous statements. Naturally, there will always exist opportunity to examine more deeply and closely even if results are unlikely to dissuade anyone from their deepest convictions of truth. However, the possibility of gaining a greater understanding of diverse perspectives is constantly enlarged by such an exercise, one I am confident we will be engaging throughout the course of ascension.
Gratefully,
Rob
6. On Aug 17, 2012, at 7:59 PM, ct wrote:
Hello Chuck-
As you have inquired and commented specifically on a number of points, I will address these in the order they have been offered.
Thanks! That's very helpful.
Afterwards, I will conclude with a general comment and invite further examination of this topic.
1. By "single episode of disclosure," are you referring to the Urantia Book?
Yes, among other such epochal/temporal disclosures where each builds upon all that precede it.
From what we know of epochal revelations, they do build from one to next. The spiritual teachings that are new in the Urantia Book are consistent with the teachings of Jesus and Melchizedek. They expand upon the spirit of prior revelation, and there is no contradiction or disharmony.
I'm not sure what you mean by "temporal disclosures," but I assume this must be your way of referring to the "transmissions" that are associated with the TM/MM. Many of these "temporal disclosures" are NOT consistent with epochal revelation. They may refer to it, but they do not build upon it. They contradict it and often compete with it.
Combining "epochal" and "temporal" with a slash appears to be an attempt on your part to mush them together into the same category, as if they hold the same status, but I think this is a dangerous mistake.
2. It all becomes meaningless if we believe that carefully articulated divine principles will be arbitrarily violated.
The Paradise Trinity is the guarantee against arbitrariness notwithstanding sometimes the expression of a higher law appears as the reversal of a lower law. It helps to remember the human mind always knows less than it can believe.
The "carefully articulated divine principles" that I am referring to are the principles and requirements that govern the adjudication of rebellion, as explained in the Urantia Book.
The claims regarding adjudication that are found in the "transmitted" messages of the TM/MM would be an arbitrary violation of these principles if they were true, but they are never explained or justified in a way that even begins to address the fact that a violation has taken place. These claims do not "build" upon earlier revelation. They not only contradict prior revelation, they ignore the contradiction!
3. Meaning what, exactly, in relation to the authority of the Urantia Book?
No revelation short of the attainment of the Universal Father can ever be complete. All other celestial ministrations are no more than partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space. While such admissions as this may possibly detract from the immediate force and authority of all revelations, the time has arrived on Urantia when it is advisable to make such frank statements, even at the risk of weakening the future influence and authority of this, the most recent of the revelations of truth to the mortal races of Urantia.
I would rather you express your meanings in your own words. I'm trying to understand what YOU are saying. I'm already familiar with what the Urantia Book says. In any case, this passage that you have quoted is talking about the relative incompleteness and local adaptation of revelation. It's not saying that we should expect bona fide revelations of truth to blatantly contradict each other.
4. Do you see it (the Urantia Book) as merely one incident among many?
Yes, among other such epochal/temporal disclosures where each builds upon all that precede it.
How do you decide which of these "disclosures" is true when they contradict each other?
5. Are you saying that it is, or isn't, advisable to rely upon the Urantia Book?
It is best to rely upon all sources of insight into the will of God, first among these is his presence within, but this is greatly augmented by embracing all of his gifts that we find unfolding around us such as the Urantia Book. "Embrace the truth wherever it is found, whatever the cost, and follow it wherever it leads."
Each of us is responsible for our own inner sense of what is true. No one else can do that for us, although we are given the opportunity to cultivate our truth sense by seeking the inner guidance that is provided by the spirit of the Father and the Spirit of Truth. Accordingly, and speaking only for myself, the teachings in the Urantia Book "ring true" to me, while much of the TM/MM material does not, which is why I choose to rely upon the Urantia Book, especially in those matters where I see contradictions.
The spiritual truth of the Urantia Book is not "in" the book. It's revealed by the inner spirit response to the teachings presented by the book.
6. Are there other social movements of significance associated with the Urantia Book?
Honestly, it is difficult to qualify the Teaching Mission and Magisterial Mission as 'social' movements as these are so fragmented, but there exist numerous bona fide social organizations inspired by the Urantia Book. Of course, it is possible to see by faith the 'movement' of Michael's Spirit of Truth operating in and through all social actions.
Ok, thanks. When you said "to mention only a few" in reference to "social movements" associated with the Urantia Book, it sounded like you were attempting to establish a broader generalization, but I couldn't quite see where you were going with that, hence my question.
7. Can you clarify your point? (re: evolutionary repercussions to epochal revelation)
What I refer to are the social and cultural repercussions of this most recent epochal revelation.
Yes, there are indeed such repercussions, as there should be. The TM/MM also has social and cultural repercussions, which are often divisive within the Urantia community as a whole.
While they may be inspired by the same authoritative document, they all lack its authority. It is helpful to distinguish between divine light and subsequent human representations of such light.
What interests me most on the human side is independent human thinking and the development of human experiential wisdom, both of which are cultivated in the crucible of the strenuous mental and spiritual efforts that are required to truly figure things out for oneself.
In the place of all those "thousands" of "transmissions" I would rather see the equivalent quantity of essays, poetry and research papers created by those same individuals, in their authentic human voices and at whatever level of capability they possess. The TM/MM archives, in a very real sense, represent the displacement of time and effort that could have gone into the development of unique human voices and priceless human wisdom.
I hope this helps to clarify previous statements. Naturally, there will always exist opportunity to examine more deeply and closely even if results are unlikely to dissuade anyone from their deepest convictions of truth. However, the possibility of gaining a greater understanding of diverse perspectives is constantly enlarged by such an exercise, one I am confident we will be engaging throughout the course of ascension.
No doubt. Thanks for continuing the conversation!
Chuck
7. Rob wrote: August 17, 2012 9:38:50 PM CDT
Hello Chuck-
As it seems you found the sequential listing of queries/comments helpful, I will continue with that format.
1. I'm not sure what you mean by "temporal disclosures".
By "temporal dislosures" I refer to epochal revelations preceding a planet's entry into the "vestibule of eternity".
2.The claims regarding adjudication that are found in the "transmitted" messages of the TM/MM would be an arbitrary violation of these principles.
I can see that this is true regarding your concept of necessary prerequisites. There do exist other concept frames.
3. I would rather you express your meanings in your own words. (re: Meaning what, in relation to authority of the Urantia Book?)
The Urantia Book itself has no authority. Such authority is found in the inner life of individual readers.
4. How do you decide which of these "disclosures" is true when they contradict each other?
'Revelation' as conditioned by any soul's need to know finds apparent contradictions resolved through intellectual labor.
5. The spiritual truth of the Urantia Book is not "in" the book. It's revealed by the inner spirit.
I couldn't agree more! I would add that all truth is authenticated solely in our living experience.
7. Yes, there are indeed such repercussions, as there should be. The TM/MM also has social and cultural repercussions, which are often divisive within the Urantia community as a whole.
Ever expanding horizons of truth discovery is divisive to those focused on one particular horizon.
7. The TM/MM archives, in a very real sense, represent the displacement of time and effort that could have gone into the development of unique human voices and priceless human wisdom.
In the collaboration required of any soul's expression, separating the human from the divine is somewhat arbitrary.
Gratefully,
Rob
